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Elfhelm & Dernhelm

Alcuin

of Zarkanya
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
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Has it occurred to anyone else that Elfhelm and his éored were aware of Éowyn’s deception in riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith? No one spoke to Merry, and if they heard him speak, they pretended not to notice. It might be that this was the extent to which the rest of the éored was informed of what was happening, but I think there can be little doubt that Elfhelm was privy to Éowyn’s Dernhelm disguise: it can hardly be expected that he would not know, particularly after he stumbled over Merry in the dark in Drúadan Forest and then spoke to him. Nor does Éomer punish Elfhelm! He leaves Elfhelm in command of the Rohirrim at Minas Tirith when Aragorn leads the Captains to the Morannon.
 
JRRT didn't mention "only Elfhelm" knew the true identity, in addition, that paragraph was from Merry's angle, so how many personnel he will contact and sense their refusal of any talk is, after all, I think there wouldn't be too many will have contact with him, for he might try his best to prevent showing up in public place due to his his illegal action. Yeah, JRRT has mentioned Merry was always afraid that he get caught.

By the way, Elfhelm's supposed to appoint Merry into the position in Elfhelm command department or some other department private enough, so how many personnel would meet Merry is obviously not too many, at least those whose duties are out of Elfhelm command department won't see Merry unless they enter it. Or unless Elfhelm had better prepare a excuse good enough to explain to all other units that why someone not reached the "height request" get conscripted into his personnel list.

At last, even if there're multiple personnel heard the conversation when Elfhelm stumbled over Merry, I think they don't have the mood to notice it, after all they're about to have a possibly last march of their life.
 
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Indeed, Elfhelm seemed to know more than he would show:

There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, the Marshal who commanded the éored in which they were riding. He and all his men ignored Merry and pretended not to hear if he spoke.​

Elfhelm’s motives are not further explained and so we cannot do more than some guessing.

My impression is that Elfhelm chose to remain discrete in this matter. Had he reported what he knew to the king, he would have been sure of suffering Éowyn’s lifelong disapproval. On the other hand, the king could hardly reproach him not to have been aware of the true situation. So, by just ignoring them, he remained on the somewhat safer side…

As said: just a personal guess.
 
I agree with Merroe. From my 1st reading I took it that Elfhelm and likely a select few riders knew that Éowyn was riding with them, and by extension Merry as well. Just seemed logical. in my mind, I figured Elfhelm weighed up the consequences of both saying something to either Theoden or Éomer, or saying nothing and covering for them until such time the battle was over. Since there was a general feeling that they were on a one-way march, the latter seemed the right path to take.
 
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I'm reminded here of the scene where Theoden is preparing to leave Edoras for the west, and asking who will stay behind, to lead the people to Dunharrow.

'Which of you will stay?'

No man spoke.

'Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?'

'In the house of Eorl,' answered Hama.

'But Eomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay,' said the king; and he is the last of that House.'

'I said not Eomer,' answered Hama. And he is not the last. There is Eowyn, daughter of Eomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone.'
 
JRRT mentions prophesies by seers every once in a while.

Now just picture a seer giving the Rohirrim this:

"You will be faced by a most fearsome foe, the returned Witch-king of Angmar.
It will be the Lady Éowyn and the holbytla Master Holdwine who will do him in."
 
I'm reminded here of the scene where Theoden is preparing to leave Edoras for the west, and asking who will stay behind, to lead the people to Dunharrow.

'Which of you will stay?'

No man spoke.

'Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?'

'In the house of Eorl,' answered Hama.

'But Eomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay,' said the king; and he is the last of that House.'

'I said not Eomer,' answered Hama. And he is not the last. There is Eowyn, daughter of Eomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone.'

Theoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.

Meanwhile, Eowyn:
tumblr_nyaz71w9J51s9rx9zo1_500.gif
 
Théoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.
I must say I can't quite follow you here. In the film, PJ shows Éowyn being horrified at that (ridiculously overdone) chain mace of the Witch-king - as well we might be. JRRT's Éowyn the shield-maiden would not have reacted like this. But PJ is just totally out of it when it comes to depicting anything about JRRT's admiration (with definite criticism at its excesses) of what he called the Northern Theory of Courage. An egregious point in case is PJ's showing of the Meeting of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli with Éomer's riders. None of this wimpy "peace, brother" holding up of his hands, Aragorn stands still and impassive even when Éomer's spear is just a foot from his chest. Something that Aragorn knew the Riders would take note of positively, as he knew it from serving Thengel, Théoden's father. PJ's almost "angst-ridden" Aragorn (and others) has been the source one of my major "wolverine" reactions to his fanfic.
 
I must say I can't quite follow you here. In the film, PJ shows Éowyn being horrified at that (ridiculously overdone) chain mace of the Witch-king - as well we might be. JRRT's Éowyn the shield-maiden would not have reacted like this. But PJ is just totally out of it when it comes to depicting anything about JRRT's admiration (with definite criticism at its excesses) of what he called the Northern Theory of Courage. An egregious point in case is PJ's showing of the Meeting of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli with Éomer's riders. None of this wimpy "peace, brother" holding up of his hands, Aragorn stands still and impassive even when Éomer's spear is just a foot from his chest. Something that Aragorn knew the Riders would take note of positively, as he knew it from serving Thengel, Théoden's father. PJ's almost "angst-ridden" Aragorn (and others) has been the source one of my major "wolverine" reactions to his fanfic.
I was referring to the passage quoted by SeS: JRRT's Theoden does not consider Eowyn a candidate for leader of the Eorlingas. Eomer is the only one that he even considers for the role, until it is spelled out to him by Hama. PJ at least permits his Theoden to acknowledge Eowyn's competence.
 
I was referring to the passage quoted by SeS: JRRT's Theoden does not consider Eowyn a candidate for leader of the Eorlingas. Eomer is the only one that he even considers for the role, until it is spelled out to him by Hama. PJ at least permits his Theoden to acknowledge Eowyn's competence.
Ah, OK, I'll take your word on PJ's treatment of the scene.
But that Théoden only considered Éomer for the role of leader of the Eorlingas staying behind is not quite right. The only one of the House of Eorl, yes, but he clearly did not consider this as a possibility. As S-eS quotes "no man spoke", so clearly men of nobility - for example Elfhelm! - weren't volunteering (but assuming they were meant). How many of them shared the sentiment of Háma is again quite another question. As they were warriors and leader of warriors, they might well have thought themselves to be (nearly) as indispensable as Éomer in the battle they were to face. And maybe with their self-image of warriors, they would not have been such a good choice for leadership to a (likely dubious) place of hiding.
 
Ah, OK, I'll take your word on PJ's treatment of the scene.
But that Théoden only considered Éomer for the role of leader of the Eorlingas staying behind is not quite right. The only one of the House of Eorl, yes, but he clearly did not consider this as a possibility. As S-eS quotes "no man spoke", so clearly men of nobility - for example Elfhelm! - weren't volunteering (but assuming they were meant). How many of them shared the sentiment of Háma is again quite another question. As they were warriors and leader of warriors, they might well have thought themselves to be (nearly) as indispensable as Éomer in the battle they were to face. And maybe with their self-image of warriors, they would not have been such a good choice for leadership to a (likely dubious) place of hiding.
I agree that the other nobles/warriors wouldn't be rushing to volunteer, as they would feel their role was to ride in to battle.

But it's what JRRT is trying to tell us here about the Theoden/Eowyn relationship. We only know what we're told in the text: Theoden asks who the people trust, he is told the House of Eorl, and that prompts him to consider possible candidates of that line. If the only criterion is being of the House of Eorl then Eowyn is equally qualified, but it doesn't cross his mind that she is capable of leading her people (until he is prompted), even when it's clear to him that Eomer cannot remain behind. This is how Theoden views Eowyn. He disregards (or doesn't see) her qualities - that she is 'fearless and high-hearted' and has the loyalty of her people. However, her people (as demonstrated by Hama) see her clearly and hold her in high esteem.

That short exchange explains much about Eowyn and her motivations in LotR - a strong and courageous woman who has gone through life being overlooked and disregarded, and who is not even thought capable of leading the old and vulnerable to a place of hiding.
 
No question. But don't confuse (not that I assume that you're doing, but I don't know ...) JRRT with Théoden.
Never mind Galadriel and Celeborn (she has the friggin' Great Elven Ring, not Celeborn!)
There's "Beren And Lúthien" from 2017. Totally misnamed. "Lúthien and some guy she was inexplicably enamored of" would be a better title. OK, there's no detailed description of the (limited) heroics Barahir, his son Beren and the other eleven "wreaked" on Morgoth's forces. Nor on the harrowing traverse by Beren of the Taur-na-Fuin infested by offspring of Ungoliant (and thus perhaps relatives of TA Shelob).

But then?

Lúthien rescues Beren from First Age Minas Tirith (by then known as Tol-in-Gaurhoth - with help from Huan); she sends Carcharoth, and then Morgoth and his entire retinue beddy-bye (and never mind the early phase when she and Huan dealt with that cat Tevildo). She melted even Mandos. Beren is some hero - ain't popping up in Marvel/DC film garbage anytime soon ...:cool:
 
I agree with Merroe and Halasían: Elfhelm was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. If he said nothing about Éowyn, he might be in trouble, or he might not; but if he said anything, he’d be in for enmity with Éowyn, who was loved and admired by the Rohirrim. (Besides that, it is likely that by this point, all of the lords of the Rohirrim were related to one another, and Éowyn was probably his kinswoman as well.) Thank you both for that insight.

The rest of this post is off-topic, but since it’s come up…

Tolkien is sometimes accused of misogyny, that there are no “strong women” in his stories. Well, I strongly disagree: There is a pattern in Tolkien’s tales of women more powerful or as powerful as the men that accompany them.
  • Manwë might have been greater in power than Varda, but it is Varda, Elbereth, who is reverenced (though not worshipped!) by the Elves and on whom the Elves and Edain/Dúnedain of Middle-earth call for help.
  • Melian is greater than Elu Thingol. She is far more powerful, and by far the wiser, too. Thingol entangles himself and his kingdom in the Oath of Fëanor by seeking to kill Beren without breaking his promise to Lúthien. Melian sees this immediately and warns him without success.
  • Lúthien is greater than Beren. Now Beren is a great person, among the greatest of Men ever to walk in Middle-earth, but Lúthien is by far the wiser and more powerful.
  • Idril is wiser than Tuor. And of course, far older.
  • Galadriel is wiser and more powerful than Celeborn. (Elthir, where are you?)
  • Arwen is older and wiser than Aragorn, who himself is no slouch.
On top of these examples, I also remember Haleth of the Second House: so great a leader was she that the whole tribe became name known as the House of Haleth. Elwing Half-elven, leader of the refugees, both Elves and Men, of Beleriand along with her husband, Eärendil Half-elven: the Silmaril of her grandparents, Beren and Lúthien, was in her keeping, and when she was accosted at the last by the Sons of Fëanor, she cast herself and the Silmaril into the Great Sea, and so by the power of Ulmo was brought to Eärendil so that his embassy might be accomplished. What of the unhappy Erendis, queen to Tar-Aldarion, who demanded but did not receive the full love of her husband? Tar-Telperiën, I believe, might have been the wisest ruler of Númenor, who appointed her nephew Minastir as co-regent and successor so that he could build the great armament that succored Gil-galad in the War of the Elves and Sauron. What of Morwen wife of Húrin, who searched unceasingly for her lost children, Turin and Niënor?

But it seems to me the repeating pattern is
Melian:Thingol :: Lúthien:Beren :: Arwen:Aragorn​
Éowyn is but the latest of these powerful women, as great as her brother Éomer and even more distinguished.
 
Has it occurred to anyone else that Elfhelm and his éored were aware of Éowyn’s deception in riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith? No one spoke to Merry, and if they heard him speak, they pretended not to notice. It might be that this was the extent to which the rest of the éored was informed of what was happening, but I think there can be little doubt that Elfhelm was privy to Éowyn’s Dernhelm disguise: it can hardly be expected that he would not know, particularly after he stumbled over Merry in the dark in Drúadan Forest and then spoke to him. Nor does Éomer punish Elfhelm! He leaves Elfhelm in command of the Rohirrim at Minas Tirith when Aragorn leads the Captains to the Morannon.

I always assumed that Elfhelm knew that "Dernhelm" is Eowyn. Merry even notices that there is "some sort" of agreement between the two (as I just noticed was already pointed out).

Theoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.

Meanwhile, Eowyn:
View attachment 7950

I always assumed that Theoden didn't dismiss her, but rather outright forgot about her existence. To repeat: he forgot he had a niece in the first place.
 
I had intended to comment on the passage I quoted, but was falling asleep, so let it stand alone. Sorry. Some observations:

Rohan is patriarchal, as is Gondor, but there's a difference: as T.A.Shippey pointed out, Tolkien admired certain qualities of "primitive" cultures like the Anglo-Saxons. One of these was a more relaxed attitude toward hierarchy and loyalty. The individual was allowed -- or, in an honor culture, expected -- to have an autonomy of thought and action that would be severely restricted in a more "advanced" society, such as a modern army.

Or Gondor. I mentioned the "contrasted parallel" of the different travel prohibitons issued by Theoden and Denethor, in another thread, and Eomer and Faramir's contrasting reactions to them. Closer to the subject here is Hama's interactions with Gandalf's party, which is taken directly from the coastwatcher's with Beowulf. We know from the previous scene with the gate guards that any weapon, "be it only a staff", must be left outside the doors. Yet Hama, the Doorward, disobeys this order, and allows Gandalf to retain his staff, something that would likely have severe consequences for a member of the Tower Guard in Minas Tirith, where leaving your post might bring a death sentence.

Why does he do this? He tells us in almost the exact words of the coastwatcher:

'The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age,' said Hama. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. 'Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthyof honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.'

It's hard to imagine such words coming from a member of the Tower Guard.

And the same attitude is exhibited in the passage I quoted earlier: I don't know whether a Doorward would number among the "lords and chiefs" gathered around the king; I tend to doubt it, but whatever the case, Hama voices his opinion, and all appear to agree. The impression is that members of this culture are free to express their opinions, even to the king.

That that opinion is new or strange-sounding may be true; that Theoden "forgot" his niece is not how I would put it, but rather that it was a break with tradition, something he had simply not thought of. And here again we can see a contrast with Gondor, and imagine what the installation of a queen, or even female steward, however temporary, might entail: conferences among counselors, searches for precedents, possible usurpation, as in Numenor, or even civil war. Yet Theoden says merely "Let it be so".

This leads me back to the topic at hand. The emphasis on individual autonomy would, I believe, cause Elfhelm and the others to respect Eowyn's decision to ride with the host, whatever the "duties" laid upon her.
 
No question. But don't confuse (not that I assume that you're doing, but I don't know ...) JRRT with Théoden.
No, I'm not confusing them. I just cited that as an example of how JRRT showed the relationship between Theoden and Eowyn, and the motivation for Eowyn's actions.
 
Háma was not merely Théoden’s doorwarden, he was also captain of Théoden’s guard until his death at Helm’s Gate. After Háma’s demise, Déorwine might have become captain, since Tolkien describes him as “chief” of Théoden’s knights, who was killed in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields before Théoden was wounded. We know there was a new captain of the guard because he announced the arrival of Hirgon, the errand-rider of Gondor, at Dunharrow. (Sorry for the pedantry: just finished re-reading “The Pyre of Denethor” a few hours ago, my umpteenth re-reading of The Lord of the Rings.)

Háma’s personal initiative in permitting Gandalf to retain his wizard’s staff is contrasted to the pugnacious refusal by the porter of the door to Rath Dínen to permit Beregond to follow Denethor and Faramir to the royal tombs of Minas Tirith.

As for the motivation behind Éowyn’s riding with the Rohirrim to battle at Minas Tirith, that is more complex, but I think it is made clear. First there is the emotional dialogue at Dunharrow between Aragorn and Éowyn, who has fallen in love with him. She asks to join the Dúnedain of Arnor on their expedition through the Paths of the Dead. When Aragorn replies that it is her duty to remain to rule over the people of Rohan in Théoden’s absence, she virtually explodes, “Too often have I heard of duty! But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse?” The conversation goes downhill from there: Éowyn is ambitious, skilled, strong, intelligent, and quite capable of holding her own against any but the best and strongest of opponents. (Including the Witch-king, but he had other problems before he could dispatch her.) “I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death,” she declares, and when asked what she fears, she replies, “A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.” When Aragorn finally says no again to her riding with the Dúnedain, she not-too-indirectly declares her love for him and retires weeping for the night.

Later in the “Houses of Healing” (I’m reading that again now), Aragorn gently confronts Éomer with Éowyn’s unrequited love for him, and Éomer, not blaming his friend Aragorn, puzzles over her actions that have nearly cost her her life. Gandalf replies,
​
“My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonored dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.​
​
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears? Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs? Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister’s love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”​
​
Then Éomer was silent, and looked on his sister, as if pondering anew all the days of their past life together.​
​
When I was younger, and for most of my life, my favorite passage in the tale was the confrontation between Éowyn and the Witch-king: “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!” Now that I am older, my favorite scene is Faramir visiting Éowyn the gardens of the Houses of Healing, where he declares his love for her, and Éowyn sets aside her pride and ambition to return his love for a life of joy, happiness, contentment, and fulfillment. Neither Saruman nor Denethor, whom most would account “greater” persons, could set aside their pride and ambition, but Éowyn proves herself greater, wiser, and of stronger personality that either of them. Like them, she is given the choice to renounce her previous path for another, but unlike them, she has the courage, strength, and fortitude to do it. Her proclamation,
​
I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun; and behold the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.​
​
is not only a complete change in her life’s path, not only a prelude to her accepting Faramir’s love, affection, and admiration (which is real and not feigned! Faramir was himself an accomplished warrior), but her claim of her Númenórean heritage: her mother’s mother was Morwen of Lossarnach, a woman of high Númenórean blood whose family hailed from Belfalas, Théoden’s mother who probably strongly influenced the early years of her life in Meduseld. For Éowyn is neither addressing nor looking at Faramir when she says this: she is looking into the West, addressing the Valar.

Sam changes more than any other character in The Lord of the Rings, progressing from gardener and batman (in the British military sense) to Frodo’s heir and the founder of the Gardeners of The Hill. But Éowyn’s character arc is next in its expanse and change: She is one of my favourite characters in The Lord of the Rings.
 
My memories are even dimmer, but I do recall a head-scratching moment in the theater, when on leaving the Three Hunters, he calls out to his men "We ride North!", and thinking "Where the heck are they going?".
 
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JRRT has mentioned for too many times that males's priority as successors have been always more than females in too many cases. Even though JRRT didn't mention he excluded matrilineal society from his work, well...his cases of showing males's priority to be political or military leaders careers were obvious.

In addition, in comparison with military, politics seem much fitter to females due to lesser risks in theory, I think that's why Theodon appointed Eowyn to handle his political stuff, after all, there must be someone to let Rohan's national war machine keep working to afford the costs of military.

@Merroe ,please let me pass this time😅😅😅
 
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