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~ Adûnaic ~

Halasían

A Retired Dúnedain Ranger Fishing Lake Evendim
Joined
Dec 16, 2001
Messages
2,289
I was going over some of the links I had collected on my website over the last couple decades and am pruning out the dead/deserted ones.
One I did come across was the Middle Earth Language site Ardalambion. I found it a fascinating read way back and am glad it is still out there on the interwebz.

I was interested in the Adûnaic, the language of Numenor. I don't think Tolkien developed it too much but it seems a cross between Sindarin and Dwarvish. Thoughts?
 
Well, internal to the legendarium it seems highly unlikely. That Men learned language from the (Avari) Elves, yes, but JRRT made it cleat that the Dwarves were very secretive about their "internal" language.
 
I agree with Olorgando that Tolkien Made it clear in the appendix F in languages and in Of Dwarves and Men in the Peoples of Middle Earth that the dwarves kept their language secret and die not share it with non-dwarves and that the dwarves spoke the languages of men with the men tat they interacted with and that Adunaic had elements from elvish. I think he also mentioned that he gave Adunaic a semitic flavour, but that was probably in a letter. Most Adunaic is in The Notion Club Papers in The History of Middle-earth, but its concept kept changing and some of the Adunaic names of Kings of Numenor do not seem to be compatible with his earlier Adunaic. The languages of Middle-earth are not my forte, but that is what I remember.
 
Slightly OT, but in TH AUJ the film, there is a bit of PJBS (of which there is massively more in the TH trilogy of films than in LoTR) when Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves are in Rivendell, and they are all going out onto some kind of veranda where Elrond is to take a look at Thrór's Map, when Gandalf in an aside (one has to pay attention to catch it) asks Elrond something to the effect of "You can read Old Dwarvish, can't you?".

Erm, except for Aulë, probably no other non-Dwarven being could read, write, speak, whatever any kind of Dwarvish, of any age. There were only roughly two handfuls of true Dwarvish words known, almost half of which were found in the Dwarves' battle cry - which usually left few opponents to remember and report them. Whatever Thrór wrote on that map must almost certainly have been in either a Mannish or Elven language.

I just couldn't resist once again taking a dig at PJ - been so long I'm almost having withdrawal symptoms! 🤪
 
This would be a good thread to hear from Elthir or our new member, Elaran.

In Sauron Defeated, in “Part Three: The Drowning of Anadûnê”, “(vi) Lowdham’s Report on the Adûnaic Language”, Tolkien’s notes (writing as the character “Alwin Arundel Lowdham”) say that
​
Adûnaic … came under some different influence [than “Avallonian”, Elvish, that Lowdham surmises the root source of Adûnaic]. This influence I call Khazâdian; because I have received a good many echoes of a curious tongue, also connected with what we should call the West of the Old World, that is associated with the name Khazâd. Now this resembles Adûnaic phonetically, and it seems also in some points of vocabulary and structure; but it is precisely at the points where Adûnaic most differs from Avallonian that it approaches nearest to Khazâdian.​
​
Later under the heading “General Structure”,
​
The majority of the word-bases of Adûnaic were triconsonantal. This structure … [bears] affinity with Khazâdian rather than with Nimrian [i.e., “Avallonian”, Elvish]. For though Nimrian has many triconsonantal stems (other than the products of normal suffiction), … these are rarer in Nimrian…​
​
So Tolkien (writing as his character “Lowdham”) proposes a history of Adûnaic beginning with Elvish [“Avallonian”/“Nimrian”], then taking on Dwarvish [“Khazâdian”] influence, and finally another layer of Elvish influence so that “modern” or “complete” Adûnaic arises.

In the Third Age and early Fourth Age, when the Appendices to Return of the King are feigned to be written, I’ve no doubt that Dwarves were secretive about their language and taught it to few or none. Silmarillion says the Eldar “could understand no word of the tongue of the Naugrim, which to their ears was cumbrous and unlovely; and few ever of the Eldar have achieved the mastery of it.” (“Of the Sindar”) Eöl the Dark Elf learned it, as did Curufin, the son of Fëanor. In War of the Jewels, “Part Four: Quendi and Eldar”, Appendix D, following a discussion of Elvish communication by gestures rather than vocalization, that discussion goes on to mention Dwarvish means of communication by gesture, which the Dwarves used “for secrecy and the exclusion of strangers.” It then continues,
​
[The Dwarves] understood and respected the disinterested desire for knowledge, and some of the later Noldorin loremasters were allowed to learn enough of both their [spoken language] and their [gestures] to understand their systems.​
​
In Peoples of Middle-earth, “Part Two: Later Writings”, “Of Dwarves and Men”, “Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men”, there is this passage:
​
[T]he Alliance of Dwarves and Men in the North came early in the Second Age to command great strength, swift in attack and valiant and well-protected in defense, and there grew up in that region between Dwarves and Men respect and esteem, and sometimes warm friendship.​
​
… [The Dwarves] were not unwilling to teach their own tongue to Men with whom they had special friendship, but Men found it difficult and were slow to learn more than isolated words, many of which they adapted and took into their own language.​
​
Akhôrahil is correct that Tolkien’s “concept[s of Adûnaic] kept changing and some of the Adunaic names of Kings of Numenor do not seem to be compatible with his earlier Adunaic,” but I think we can safely surmise that some of the ideas presented in History of Middle-earth were retained, or at least reflected notions that Tolkien retained of Khuzdul and its relationship to Adûnaic.

In short, I am comfortable with the notion that Khuzdul influenced early Adûnaic before the Edain crossed into Beleriand. It seems a perfectly natural idea; after all, even the Elves accepted some words of Dwarvish into their language: Finrod Felagund is mixed Sindarin and Khuzdul for “Finrod Hewer of Caves”, Khuzdul kheled for “glass” in retained in Sindarin as heledh, and Khuzdul Khazâd for “Dwarves” enters into Quenya as Casar.

But I am not one of the Lambengolmor, the Loremasters of Tongues. I hope that someone more astute on these matters than I will contribute to this thread.
 
Slightly OT, but in TH AUJ the film, there is a bit of PJBS (of which there is massively more in the TH trilogy of films than in LoTR) when Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves are in Rivendell, and they are all going out onto some kind of veranda where Elrond is to take a look at Thrór's Map, when Gandalf in an aside (one has to pay attention to catch it) asks Elrond something to the effect of "You can read Old Dwarvish, can't you?".

Erm, except for Aulë, probably no other non-Dwarven being could read, write, speak, whatever any kind of Dwarvish, of any age. There were only roughly two handfuls of true Dwarvish words known, almost half of which were found in the Dwarves' battle cry - which usually left few opponents to remember and report them. Whatever Thrór wrote on that map must almost certainly have been in either a Mannish or Elven language.

I just couldn't resist once again taking a dig at PJ - been so long I'm almost having withdrawal symptoms! 🤪
You just can't resist bringing the PJ fanfix into Tolkien discussions can you. 😆

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


This would be a good thread to hear from Elthir or our new member, Elaran.

In Sauron Defeated, in “Part Three: The Drowning of Anadûnê”, “(vi) Lowdham’s Report on the Adûnaic Language”, Tolkien’s notes (writing as the character “Alwin Arundel Lowdham”) say that
​
Adûnaic … came under some different influence [than “Avallonian”, Elvish, that Lowdham surmises the root source of Adûnaic]. This influence I call Khazâdian; because I have received a good many echoes of a curious tongue, also connected with what we should call the West of the Old World, that is associated with the name Khazâd. Now this resembles Adûnaic phonetically, and it seems also in some points of vocabulary and structure; but it is precisely at the points where Adûnaic most differs from Avallonian that it approaches nearest to Khazâdian.​
​
Later under the heading “General Structure”,
​
The majority of the word-bases of Adûnaic were triconsonantal. This structure … [bears] affinity with Khazâdian rather than with Nimrian [i.e., “Avallonian”, Elvish]. For though Nimrian has many triconsonantal stems (other than the products of normal suffiction), … these are rarer in Nimrian…​
​
So Tolkien (writing as his character “Lowdham”) proposes a history of Adûnaic beginning with Elvish [“Avallonian”/“Nimrian”], then taking on Dwarvish [“Khazâdian”] influence, and finally another layer of Elvish influence so that “modern” or “complete” Adûnaic arises.

In the Third Age and early Fourth Age, when the Appendices to Return of the King are feigned to be written, I’ve no doubt that Dwarves were secretive about their language and taught it to few or none. Silmarillion says the Eldar “could understand no word of the tongue of the Naugrim, which to their ears was cumbrous and unlovely; and few ever of the Eldar have achieved the mastery of it.” (“Of the Sindar”) Eöl the Dark Elf learned it, as did Curufin, the son of Fëanor. In War of the Jewels, “Part Four: Quendi and Eldar”, Appendix D, following a discussion of Elvish communication by gestures rather than vocalization, that discussion goes on to mention Dwarvish means of communication by gesture, which the Dwarves used “for secrecy and the exclusion of strangers.” It then continues,
​
[The Dwarves] understood and respected the disinterested desire for knowledge, and some of the later Noldorin loremasters were allowed to learn enough of both their [spoken language] and their [gestures] to understand their systems.​
​
In Peoples of Middle-earth, “Part Two: Later Writings”, “Of Dwarves and Men”, “Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men”, there is this passage:
​
[T]he Alliance of Dwarves and Men in the North came early in the Second Age to command great strength, swift in attack and valiant and well-protected in defense, and there grew up in that region between Dwarves and Men respect and esteem, and sometimes warm friendship.​
​
… [The Dwarves] were not unwilling to teach their own tongue to Men with whom they had special friendship, but Men found it difficult and were slow to learn more than isolated words, many of which they adapted and took into their own language.​
​
Akhôrahil is correct that Tolkien’s “concept[s of Adûnaic] kept changing and some of the Adunaic names of Kings of Numenor do not seem to be compatible with his earlier Adunaic,” but I think we can safely surmise that some of the ideas presented in History of Middle-earth were retained, or at least reflected notions that Tolkien retained of Khuzdul and its relationship to Adûnaic.

In short, I am comfortable with the notion that Khuzdul influenced early Adûnaic before the Edain crossed into Beleriand. It seems a perfectly natural idea; after all, even the Elves accepted some words of Dwarvish into their language: Finrod Felagund is mixed Sindarin and Khuzdul for “Finrod Hewer of Caves”, Khuzdul kheled for “glass” in retained in Sindarin as heledh, and Khuzdul Khazâd for “Dwarves” enters into Quenya as Casar.

But I am not one of the Lambengolmor, the Loremasters of Tongues. I hope that someone more astute on these matters than I will contribute to this thread.

Yes, I think that's where I got my oversimplified remark in my start of this thread. Thanks for this Alcuin. :)
 
:rolleyes: Gandolorian, "Taking a Dig" at PJ is one thing.
Bringing him and his movies up in Tolkien discussions, especially ones that have 0 to do with the movies is another. 😆
 
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I'll leave the Adunaic to Elaran but I'm wondering if Fandalf (film-gandalf) was referring to the runes?

It's not the way I would have phrased it, if so, but whatever.
 

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