Which Middle-earth character has seen the most wars?

[m4r35n357]

I have already said above; they were there, and they were summoned by Fionwe. There is no indication that they ignored the summons. The only other reference to the War of Wrath is in the Later Annals of Beleriand (HoME 5), and that does not support your assertion either.

 

[Olorgando]

Maedhros and Maglor are not mentioned, in the published Silmarillion, until after the War of Wrath is over - in fact after the mention of the ruin and downfall of "the the norther region of the western world".

"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfillment of their oath; ..."

This does sound as if Maedhros and Maglor were among those "Elves of Beleriand" who had to be summoned, meaning were not in the war (though by this time Beleriand had ceased to exist - oh, well ...). So I think this statement, together with "... for among {the host of the Valar} went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, ...", make it a good deal more likely that Maedhros and Maglor did not take part in the War of Wrath. Perhaps even far more likely.

But I will not state that it is 100% sure that they did not take part.
That kind of certainty could only be reached if JRRT had explicitly written one of two things:

"Maedhros and Maglor did not take part in the War of Wrath."
or
"Maedhros and Maglor did take part in the War of Wrath."

 

[m4r35n357]

"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfillment of their oath; ..."

In my reading "summoned to depart" was intended for all elves; their time in ME was over. There is no explicit mention of a class of Elves that abstained from the actual War and needed an additional summons (nor anything that contradicts it). The only Elf mentioned by name in the entire War apart from Fionwe (Eonwe) is Ingwiel son of Ingwe (king of the Lindar/Vanyar) who "made a landing at Eglorest" (Later Annals).

"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfillment of their oath; ..."

I won't edit my first answer this time!

That summons was after the war, and applied to all Elves in Middle Earth, regardless of whether they fought.

The summons I was mistakenly talking about in my first reply was the one when Eonwe first arrived and summoned Elves & Men etc . . .. to join him in the War (the one that I claim M&M most probably complied with). This does not appear in the published Silmarillion, but was neither amended nor marked for deletion by JRRT as far as QS2 (late 50s).

I got the two mixed up just now, but I hope I have clarified my position?

 

[Olorgando]

The only other reference to the War of Wrath is in the Later Annals of Beleriand (HoME 5), and that does not support your assertion either.

"Fionwe . . . summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East"

HoMe 5 is right, but the later Annals of Beleriand (Part Two, section III) say little of use. What you quoted is from Part Two, section VI "Quenta Silmarillion".
This is by far the longest section in HoMe 5. The quote is to be found in the part "The conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion", on page 328, heading §15:

"But at the last Fionwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East."

Hithlum was not Beleriand. It was to the north-west of west Beleriand, separated by mountains. Actually, it was separated from Beleriand to a much larger degree by the regions of Dor-Lómin to the south, and Nevrast west of Dor-Lómin. Nevrast had been Turgon's realm before he relocated secretly to Gondolin. So it seems that the "Elves of Beleriand" are still staying out of the fray.

Thing is, no one knows where Maedhros and Maglor made their home at this time.
"... those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands ..." had suffered not a little at the hands of the sons of Fëanor. Those of Doriath and the Havens of Sirion explicitly, but any from Nargothrond would also have serious gripes about Celegorm and Curufin. So where did Maedhros and Maglor pop up from when Fionwë / Eönwë "summoned"? We have no certain idea.

 

[m4r35n357]

Hithlum was not Beleriand. It was to the north-west of west Beleriand, separated by mountains. Actually, it was separated fro Beleriand to a much larger degree by the regions of Dor-Lómin to the south, and Nevrast west of Dor-Lómin. Nevrast had been Turgon's realm before he relocated secretly to Gondolin. So it seems that the "Elves of Beleriand" are still staying out of the fray.

Thing is, no one knows where Maedhros and Maglor made their home at this time.
"... those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands ..." had suffered not a little at the hands of the sons of Fëanor. Those of Doriath and the Havens of Sirion explicitly, but any from Nargothrond would also have serious gripes about Celegorm and Curufin. So where did Maedhros and Maglor pop up from when Fionwë / Eönwë "summoned"? We have no certain idea.

I refuse to accept that there were any Noldor that far North (Hithlum) by that time, all their strongholds were long overrun. So making a distinction on Beleriand being separate is valid, but not relevant; all the Elves were in Beleriand Well, the Havens (and Ossiriand) I would say.

The second point; Excellent!
According to the published Silmarillion, the "remnant" joined Gil-galad on Balar (Elrond & Elros were taken captive).
In the QS and Later Annals, they actually all joined up with Maidros (Maglor looked after Elrond & Elros)!

So, a straight choice between JRRT and Christopher I think

 

[Olorgando]

I got the two mixed up just now, but I hope I have clarified my position?

Just a technical comment: I had to dig around in my books while typing the stuff for my above post, starting minutes after my post of over an hour ago. And I am not of the "ten-fingered" in that discipline. 🥴 So your two posts arrived while I was sweating away at my keyboard. After a short break for legal addictive substances, I shall return. 🥵

 

[m4r35n357]

Just a technical comment: I had to dig around in my books while typing the stuff for my above post, starting minutes after my post of over an hour ago. And I am not of the "ten-fingered" in that discipline. 🥴 So your two posts arrived while I was sweating away at my keyboard. After a short break for legal addictive substances, I shall return. 🥵

NP; lots to mull over . . .

 

[Olorgando]

In my reading "summoned to depart" was intended for all elves; their time in ME was over.

I would balk seriously at construing that summons to encompass all Elves in M-e, including those east of the Blue mountains, which became a coastal mountain range at the end of the War of Wrath (though JRRT also had versions that Beleriand was ruined in the WoW, but "only" sank below the sea in the hugely more cataclysmic destruction of Númenor and the world being made round).

I see "Elves of Beleriand" as meaning almost all of the Noldorin exiles and their descendants (I'll get to the almost below), as well as Sindarin Elves of (formerly) Doriath, perhaps the Green-Elves of Ossiriand - but any east of the Blue Mountains? Those would mostly be Avari, who had refused the original (and very problematic) summons of the Valar, in the Two Trees First Age, to all Elves to come with them into the far west, to Aman. Instead of doing their (the Valar's) actual job, ridding M-e of the last vestiges of Melkor's evil (it was Fëanor who much later gave him the name Morgoth). I've snarled at the Valar's dereliction of their duty numerous time. Even those pathetic Olympian and Asgardian wimps occasionally look good compared to the (very early legendarium) Aman wimps.

Then there is the bit about Galadriel (at the mention of that name Elthir will probably swoop in here like a peregrine falcon 😁 ) in LoTR having been banned from returning to Aman. Excuse me? Compared to Maedhros and Maglor she had utterly clean hands, while theirs were dripping blood. Celebrimbor and some buddies also didn't take those ships at the end of the First Age, and we know what that led to (yes - our favorite book 😁 ).

Christopher Tolkien, in constructing the published Silmarillion, had to make do with manuscripts that were up to 30 years apart in the writing. A practically hopeless job, if you read all of the First Age HoMe books ...

 

[m4r35n357]

I would balk seriously at construing that summons to encompass all Elves in M-e, including those east of the Blue mountains, which became a coastal mountain range at the end of the War of Wrath (though JRRT also had versions that Beleriand was ruined in the WoW, but "only" sank below the sea in the hugely more cataclysmic destruction of Númenor and the world being made round).

I see "Elves of Beleriand" as meaning almost all of the Noldorin exiles and their descendants (I'll get to the almost below), as well as Sindarin Elves of (formerly) Doriath, perhaps the Green-Elves of Ossiriand - but any east of the Blue Mountains? Those would mostly be Avari, who had refused the original (and very problematic) summons of the Valar, in the Two Trees First Age, to all Elves to come with them into the far west, to Aman. Instead of doing their (the Valar's) actual job, ridding M-e of the last vestiges of Melkor's evil (it was Fëanor who much later gave him the name Morgoth). I've snarled at the Valar's dereliction of their duty numerous time. Even those pathetic Olympian and Asgardian wimps occasionally look good compared to the (very early legendarium) Aman wimps.

Then there is the bit about Galadriel (at the mention of that name Elthir will probably swoop in here like a peregrine falcon 😁 ) in LoTR having been banned from returning to Aman. Excuse me? Compared to Maedhros and Maglor she had utterly clean hands, while theirs were dripping blood. Celebrimbor and some buddies also didn't take those ships at the end of the First Age, and we know what that led to (yes - our favorite book 😁 ).

Christopher Tolkien, in constructing the published Silmarillion, had to make do with manuscripts that were up to 30 years apart in the writing. A practically hopeless job, if you read all of the First Age HoMe books ...

I am certainly not criticising Christopher, I just like to understand what bits were his input. In my mind there is room for more than one version of the stories.

As to the summoning of the Elves, I don't balk because Legolas knew the score, and he was Avari I think, or his people were. I don't see the summons as immediate, but ongoing; return or fade, and I can believe that the word got around where it was needed.

I think the shoe-horning of Galadriel into the tales (including the LoTR appendices) was not handled particularly well by JRRT himself, unfortunately. Too little time . . .

One last note about Christopher; in the intro to the Later Annals of Beleriand, he says "Both AV2 and AB2 only came to light only recently (I was not aware of their existence when The Silmarillion was prepared for publication)". If only he had them at the time . . .

 

[Olorgando]

One last note about Christopher; in the intro to the Later Annals of Beleriand, he says "Both AV2 and AB2 only came to light only recently (I was not aware of their existence when The Silmarillion was prepared for publication)". If only he had them at the time . . .

There is a term I have heard often in my "professional" life:

"design freeze"

and its opposite

"feature creep"

The computer games industry, IIRC, was particularly "good" at the latter, and bad at the former.

But they were not alone. Having MBA's around during discussions seems to have been about the worst possible situation.

Christopher's "Silmarillion" was a design freeze ...

 

[m4r35n357]

Christopher's "Silmarillion" was a design freeze ...

I have been involved in that industry for most of my working life so I completely understand what you are saying! However, I can't resist playing your game, so I will toss out another, less often heard term from that same industry; "feature complete"

My favoured "release candidate" is the pre-LotR text but, as I said, there is room for other presentations. The only necessary practical constraint IMO is self-consistency. Christopher has acknowledged that to achieve self-consistency at that later stage of development required "more than editorial input". Horses for courses . . .

 

[Alcuin]

From Silmarillion, chapter 24, “Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”,

​

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.​

​

In other words, none of the Noldor of Middle-earth or the Sindar or the Green Elves (the Danians) marched with the host of the Valar to the war. I think I recall that many of the surviving Edain did, though. In any case, the text says the Eldar of Middle-earth learned from those Elves who came from Valinor to wage war on Morgoth for their succor at the prayer of Eärendil “only ... long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman,” that is, after their return to the West. This notion that none of the Elves of Beleriand accompanied the host of the Valar to the War of Wrath is present in Lost Road (HoME vol. 5), which I am currently rereading; but I think most of that material is what eventually made it into Silmarillion. Within the story, we may suppose that the Númenóreans in turn learned of it from their friends from Tol Eressëa: the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth learned of it from the Númenóreans (or from Elrond, if he and Elros accompanied the host of the Valar).

I voted for Elrond in the poll. I think it is possible that Elrond and Elros accompanied the host of the West: they were half Edain. (Maybe Elros went and Elrond stayed behind: Elros chose to be numbered among Men, and Elrond among Elves.) The other Elves in the list (save Legolas) fought only in the First Age. Elrond had two long ages in Middle-earth, and I figure he fought in a great many battles. He fought in the War of the Elves and Sauron in the Second Age and the War of the Last Alliance in the Third Age. The First Age was full of skirmishes, most of which go unrecorded (that is the nature of skirmishes), but the Second and Third Ages were also full of small clashes. But in any case, deciding who fought most is at best a guess, unless Círdan is added to the list: Círdan had more than three ages in Middle-earth under the Sun, and at least seven ages under the stars before that, longer than anyone else on the list to fight in wars, battles, and skirmishes.

A room full of MBAs can be either boring or amusing once they reach the stage of contemplating their belly-button detritus. Throw in a few PhDs, though, and things can get heated if they disagree on which theory to use in constructing models.

 

[m4r35n357]

From Silmarillion, chapter 24, “Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”,

​

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.​

I think we only disagree on the meaning of "the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth", "little is said in any tale", and "among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands"

I am assuming that you see it as a "Northward march" from, say, Balar or the Havens up the Sirion to Angband. Thus the "remnant" of defeated Elves could be left behind (why?) while the Vanyar did all the fighting. This would have involved a ludicrously long sea voyage directly East before any of that happened. It also raises the question of how the surviving Edain, still in bondage in Hithlum or hiding in Brethil, managed to join the faraway (Southerly) Host without being slaughtered en masse by the Men of Hithlum. There were precious few left after Unnumbered Tears, and Anfauglith was full of enemies!

My interpretation is of a "Northward march" through Valinor/Aman to one or more narrower sea crossings to the north of Middle-earth (Losgar/Eglorest). I think there would need to be a Northerly landing to get forces into Hithlum and gather up the Edain before Morgoth could order their destruction. The "remnant" Elves would know nothing of this Northward march through Valinor (hence, "little is said . . .") but would still be able to join in the fight.

Ref. The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion $15 onwards, and Later Annals of Beleriand, entries 333-350, HoME 5
The QS text was carried through to QS2 (HoME 11) with only minor name changes.

Unfortunately the very condensed text in the published Silmarillion is a bit vague on details.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...My interpretation is of a "Northward march" through Valinor/Aman to one or more narrower sea crossings to the north of Middle-earth (Losgar/Eglorest). I think there would need to be a Northerly landing to get forces into Hithlum and gather up the Edain before Morgoth could order their destruction. The "remnant" Elves would know nothing of this Northward march through Valinor but would still be able to join in the fight....

Yes, this is acceptable, after all, we've no idea how large was the whole "battlefield", for even only the grand campaigns obviously might even took places in multiple places(Valinor's D-day and the Dragons's counter offense were obviously hold in different places.), it went without saying that those skirmishes really got those ME remnants take part or not. The "Northward march" might be only a part of the grand campaign.

The second point; Excellent!
According to the published Silmarillion, the "remnant" joined Gil-galad on Balar (Elrond & Elros were taken captive).
In the QS and Later Annals, they actually all joined up with Maidros (Maglor looked after Elrond & Elros)!

Or could Elrond had already become adult and gotten enlisted into Valinor's Host on his own? I've calculated the time, the years between Elrond's adoption and the War of Wrath, emm...alright, though JRRT haven't mentioned the biological growing progress of elves, I hope my offer isn't too absurd.

 

[Elthir]

M4 (if I may call you that, although it reminds me of a road in England), you're making me think.

Stop it

But so far, here are some/my thoughts . . .

( . . . ) Thus the "remnant" of defeated Elves could be left behind (why?) while the Vanyar did all the fighting.

Plus some Noldor from Aman, for example, according to the conclusion to QS, section 6.

This would have involved a ludicrously long sea voyage directly East before any of that happened.

But the Teleri were doing the sailing anyway, and remained on the ships.

Ah, that reminds of Amros burning in one of the ships of Losgar [cough].

My interpretation is of a "Northward march" through Valinor/Aman to one or more narrower sea crossings to the north of Middle-earth (Losgar/Eglorest).

But here I ask me: why mention this in the context of little is known . . . I mean no offense to Quenta Silmarillion writers, but who cares (that much). Sure one could argue that it might be a chance for some poetic description, but isn't the headline here the War?

Of Wrath.

Ref. The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion $15 onwards, and Later Annals of Beleriand, entries 333-350, HoME 5

If we employ LAB for a selective moment [340/540], it notes that Maedros and Maglor fled to Balar,
and this much appears to agree with The Tale of Years (WJ) version A: 540: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar."
[547 The host of the Valar come out of the West and land in Beleriand.]

If we look again at AB, who did "Fionwe" summon: all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds who did not elect to fight for Morgy.

Yet if we look as QS he summons: "all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East."

The QS text was carried through to QS2 (HoME 11) with only minor name changes.

Yes, but even Christopher Tolkien warns the reader here about these cursory changes. I won't quote it all here, but to my mind the end result is, to paraphrase: these changes need not, or may not, "imply any sort of final approval of the content"

I take this to mean (especially the fuller context, if I wasn't too lazy to type it all out) that, despite these later corrections, this conclusion of QS still, at least possibly or arguably, awaited a fuller updating. Christopher Tolkien even notes that he thinks it remarkable and not easy to interpret that his father should (seemingly) treat this text as "requiring only minor and particular revision at this much later time."

Thus, in my opinion, landing us in the same 🔥 boat with Feanor's youngest son . . .

. . . oops I mean thus landing us in the familiar boat of an unfinished Silmarillion, with some misty grey areas regarding the later chapters especially, including the sinking of Beleriand.

🐾

 

[m4r35n357]

M4 (if I may call you that, although it reminds me of a road in England), you're making me think.

Stop it

Elthir: learn to cut & paste My handle is NOT M4

I get what you are saying, but you are only trying to convince me of a viewpoint that I used to have myself. I stand by my objections, implausible as they might seem to you!

Can you give a good reason for not allowing the defeated Noldor to take part? Please don't tell me they were too tired

 

[Elthir]

Just admit that Amros Umbarto died at Losgar whether you like it or not

Edit: oh I didn't see the edit before I wrote my first response!

 

[m4r35n357]

Just admit that Amros Umbarto died at Losgar whether you like it or not

Oh I didn't see the edit!

I'm happy to accept that, whatever his name. Just makes Feanor look even more stupid

 

[m4r35n357]

If we look again at AB, who did "Fionwe" summon: all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds who did not elect to fight for Morgy.

Yet if we look as QS he summons: "all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East."

To me, both say "All Elves, no exceptions".

 

[Elthir]

Can you give a good reason for not allowing the defeated Noldor to take part? Please don't tell me they were too tired

I'd like to think more on this in any case, but for now my response circles round Tolkien's choice of suffered . . . as if to say, you have suffered and lost so many already . . . take the "day" off . . .

. . . we've heard Earendil . . . and yes, we're coming.


The Ambarussa Brothers

Feanor's son who died at Losgar:

Mother-name is Ambarussa -- which would yield Amros in Sindarin. Feanor asked Nerdanel to give him a different name, so she said Umbarto -- but Feanor changed this to Ambarto (or "in some versions" he thought Nerdanel has said Ambarto) -- and had Ambarto lived, this name would probably have been Sindarized as Amrod -- but he did not live -- and so Umbarto appeared to be the correct form, and thus if a name for him was encountered in Sindarin it was Amarthan "Fated One".

The twins called each other Ambarussa, but others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa "First-russa" and "Second russa."

And I assume his Father-name was Telufinwe "Last Finwe" given the meaning.

And I cannot ask Tolkien to give up this amazing naming scenario