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The One Ring when 👁️Sauron was in Numenor?Or those Rings really suck

Hisoka Morrow

Eastern Anduin Battlefield Commander
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Apr 17, 2020
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As title, the Numenor played Sauron like a piece of cake by their superior military, then here came a problem, how did they they deal with the One Ring? Or the One Ring, in fact, all it got was nothing but bulletting noobs rivals, unless it had the power of mind-control, not revealed by the Numenor even after the Imperial downfall. Any thought?
 
I think we should consider that the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, could be worn and wielded yet hidden from others. Frodo saw Galadriel’s ring only after he had seen the Eye of Sauron in the Mirror of Galadriel, and then only because he was the Ring-bearer. Sam could not see Galadriel’s ring. No one seems to have seen Gandalf’s ring or Elrond’s, but I suspect they wore them: not wearing them would subject the rings to becoming lost, as happened to Gollum. (Arguably, the One Ring left Gollum of its “own accord,” but still, wearing the Three Rings meant that the wielders had the full powers of the objects at all times: thus the mortal danger to them should Sauron reacquire his Ruling Ring.)

Men (and Hobbits) wearing Rings of Power became invisible. Dwarves did not. I don’t think Elves wanted to be invisible, either: one of their primary motives in making the Rings of Power was to overcome the fading of their physical bodies: Invisibility would certainly be a detriment to that goal! I think invisibility among Mortals is a necromantic corruption of their nature, just as the prevention of fading was, arguably, a necromantic corruption of the nature of Elves.
 
I wondered about the Ring in Numenor also. Did he even have it there with him? When the world was changed and Numenor sank beneath the waves, Sauron's physical body went with it; his spirit fled back to M-E. Can a spirit tote a ring along with it? If he left it in Mordor, why? Surely he would need all of his power to... do whatever his goal was in Numenor.
 
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I wondered about the Ring in Numenor also. Did he even have it there with him? When the world was changed and Numenor sank beneath the waves, Sauron's physical body went with it; his spirit fled back to M-E. Can a spirit tote a ring along with it? If he left it in Mordor, why? Surely he would need all of his power to... do whatever his goal was in Numenor.

Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?
 
Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?
Yes, it's all a bit contradictory. I can't back it up with sources right now, but on the one hand - if I remember correctly - the Sil says that Sauron picked up the Ring again after his return to Mordor, which implies that it was kept in Mordor for that long.
On the other hand, there is a letter from Tolkien that (implicitly) says that the Ring was with him in Numenor and that he brought his Ring back to Middle-earth via his spiritual or magical Maia-powers after Numenor's demise, while he himself was only present in disembodied form. In this case, it is probably crucial that Sauron knew exactly where the Ring was, since his body sank into the sea together with the Ring.
How exactly this happened is, of course, unclear. Perhaps his spirit was able to get some sea beasts or sea-dwelling Ainur who served Morgoth or Sauron to carry the Ring eastward? Or perhaps his spirit could simply influence the ocean currents so that after a few months or years the Ring washed up on the shores of Middle-earth, where his minions would already be standing by to take the Ring to Mordor?
 
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I remember discussing this years ago on another forum, maybe Reddit . . . ?

He "took up again the Great Ring", implying he had not been using it in Numenor. Overruled by "implicit" private correspondence to a third party from the author - do we as readers need to allow that?
 
I remember discussing this years ago on another forum, maybe Reddit . . . ?

He "took up again the Great Ring", implying he had not been using it in Numenor. Overruled by "implicit" private correspondence to a third party from the author - do we as readers need to allow that?
This was possible. After all, the military power of the Last Alliance, much weaker than the whole Numenor Empire, still could take down Sauron with the One Ring latterly on their own, proving that the Numenor would consider the One Ring as a piece of cake, meaning that they didn't need to keep any eye on the One Ring at all. Thus, it's absolutely Sauron could classify the One Ring without being inspected.
 
I have in my head that the One Ring only affects the wearer (if not Sauron) and those with one of the other Rings of Power . . . is that right?
That depends I guess, on what you mean by "affecting". The implication in Unfinished Tales is that the presence of the Ring - at that point still heavily infused with Sauron's evil will, so soon after the Siege of Barad-Dur - drew the orcs to Isildur as he returned to the North, leading to his doom. Aragorn also implied that the Ring drew the Nazgul to Frodo's location at Weathertop. And Gollum was certainly cowed by the Ring on the occasions that Frodo chose to use it to subdue him.

So my opinion, as hinted at previously, is that Sauron would probably have needed the part of his power in the Ring to coerce the Numenoreans in Numenor, i.e. he needed the Ring with him.
 
I wondered about the Ring in Numenor also. Did he even have it there with him? When the world was changed and Numenor sank beneath the waves, Sauron's physical body went with it; his spirit fled back to M-E. Can a spirit tote a ring along with it? If he left it in Mordor, why? Surely he would need all of his power to... do whatever his goal was in Numenor.
Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?
We just went through this three days ago in another thread, “Differences between the first age and the third age”. To repeat the citation,
​
One thing the Ruling Ring definitely provided Sauron was a degree of indestructibility. When Númenor fell into the sea and Sauron’s first body was destroyed, he was able to regain a shape, though not an attractive one: more like a Balrog’s. (Tolkien was aware of the discrepancy of Sauron’s spirit carrying off the Ring, remaking in Letter 211 that “one need [not] boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.”) When Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand and his “spirit fled,” leaving his body to disappear or burn up or be rolled into Orodruin or whatever fate befell it, even without possession of the Ring its very existence allowed Sauron to regroup and remake a physical form.​
​
He "took up again the Great Ring", implying he had not been using it in Numenor. Overruled by "implicit" private correspondence to a third party from the author - do we as readers need to allow that?
If you’d like to pick at JRR Tolkien, to claim that he wrote one thing in texts he published himself during his lifetime – i.e., “canon” – then repudiated his own published work during his lifetime, I think you have taken upon yourself a very grave and difficult task. For one thing, Tolkien himself is beyond the grave. For another, I think you are gravely mistaken: I do not believe he has contradicted himself in this instance. But most of all, I believe his own words in Letter 211 shows that he was himself aware of the problem of Sauron’s “spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.”

As for Sauron’s “[taking] up again the Great Ring,” I think you are misapprehending the meaning of the words. First, Sauron had been disembodied in the Downfall of Númenor: hence the perceived problem with his “spirit carrying off the One Ring.” Once he reëmbodied himself, which he was able to do precisely because of the continued existence of his Ruling Ring “upon which his power … now largely depended,” (see post 25 from three days ago in the aforementioned thread), he again began wearing the Ring.

I think we can be reasonably certain Sauron had and wore the One Ring while in Númenor. For one thing, the Elves were quite secretive about the Rings of Power: Elrond makes it clear (FotR, “Council of Elrond”) that open discussion of them had never before occurred; and in any case, Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with the Eldar: There was no way to warn him of his peril had the Elves even attempted to do so, since he and his grandfather before him had forbidden all communication and interaction with the Elves of Eressëa, and presumably assistance to and communication with Gil-galad as well: The King’s Men of Númenor no longer recognized the Elves as friends and allies. And to repeat post #2 in this thread,
I think we should consider that the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, could be worn and wielded yet hidden from others. … Men (and Hobbits) wearing Rings of Power became invisible. Dwarves did not. I don’t think Elves wanted to be invisible, either: one of their primary motives in making the Rings of Power was to overcome the fading of their physical bodies: Invisibility would certainly be a detriment to that goal! I think invisibility among Mortals is a necromantic corruption of their nature, just as the prevention of fading was, arguably, a necromantic corruption of the nature of Elves.
If that observation is correct, then Sauron could wear and use his Ruling Ring without any of the Númenóreans noticing it – in which case his “[taking] up again the Great Ring” implies he wore it openly. And as I believe someone else has recently observed, the One Ring was plain, without marks or stone or decoration, though the heat of Sauron’s hand of his second avatar, the one he formed after returning to Mordor following the Downfall of Númenor, one that seems to have strongly resembled a burning Balrog, made visible the writing that Isildur transcribed, the writing Gandalf caused to appear when he threw the Ring into Frodo’s fireplace. Assuming Sauron in Númenor was not in a form with burning heat, those letters would not be revealed to the Dúnedain with Ar-Pharazôn, and if he or his counselors ever even saw the Ring, it appeared “plain and smooth, without mark or device that … could [be] see[n].” (Frodo’s observation in “Shadow of the Past”.)

By the way, a fuller recitation of the passage from “Rings of Power…” in Silmarillion makes this a little clearer, at least to my reading:
​
Sauron … [returned to Middle-earth] in secret, … to his ancient kingdom of Mordor… Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging; and in the midst of the Land of Mordor he had fashioned the Ruling Ring. There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.​

[T]he military power of the Last Alliance, much weaker than the whole Numenor Empire, still could take down Sauron with the One Ring latterly on their own, proving that the Numenor would consider the One Ring as a piece of cake...
The Númenóreans did not defeat Sauron. They terrified his armies so that these deserted him in fear. Sauron’s “surrender” was a ruse, and a brilliant one at that. He could not otherwise get to Númenor: he had no navy, no seapower; he was unwelcome as an enemy even the fallen Númenóreans recognized as a threat; being taken as a “hostage” rather than as a prisoner implies that he was from the outset treated well and with respect, recognized as a royal person in and of himself.

───◊───

Here are four more threads in which this was discussed in the past:

Discussions can – and should – repeat, of course, as new information and new interpretations, not to mention new participants in the discussions, arise. But it is a well-rehearsed path.
 
If you’d like to pick at JRR Tolkien, to claim that he wrote one thing in texts he published himself during his lifetime – i.e., “canon” – then repudiated his own published work during his lifetime, I think you have taken upon yourself a very grave and difficult task. For one thing, Tolkien himself is beyond the grave. For another, I think you are gravely mistaken: I do not believe he has contradicted himself in this instance. But most of all, I believe his own words in Letter 211 shows that he was himself aware of the problem of Sauron’s “spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.”
Big if! I am taking on no such task. I am merely expressing a view that an author should be judged on their published works (or failing that, works ultimately intended for publication in the form of a narrative, like in Unfinished Tales or HoME). To be blunt; IMO there is not even an opportunity for such repudiation, unless it is made "official" (addressed to the general public), like the updated Bilbo ring story!

Therefore I do not count individual correspondence as canon, and that is a personal choice. I think the letters are hugely valuable for their insights into the author's current thoughts, but most useful in placing the development of ideas into some sort of sequence; we all know that the ideas themselves were in a constant state of flux.

As to the grave, all the great authors are dead, or will be soon ;) Will future generations consider the personal correpondence of Tolkien any more significant than that of Dickens, Cervantes, Hardy? Well I won't be here to find out either!
 
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@m4r35n357: It certainly was not intended as an insult; a teasing, a ribbing, but not an insult or challenge. I don’t agree with you on this particular point, though I agree with most of your other positions I’ve seen in the forum. In either case, I respect your opinion; I just respectfully disagree.

I think it was clearly Tolkien’s intention that Sauron had his Ring in Númenor, and that he used his power in it (he had passed most of his native strength into the Ring in order to dominate the wills of those with the other Rings of Power) to influence Ar-Pharazôn and his followers, the Kings’ Men. I think we can agree that Tolkien realized a discrepancy arises when we consider that Sauron’s body was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, leaving his spirit to carry the Ring back to Middle-earth. Tolkien didn’t seem to think that a flaw in the storyline, and rather bruskly dismissed it in his letter written in 1958, when things were still fresh on his mind.
 
I think it was clearly Tolkien’s intention that Sauron had his Ring in Númenor, and that he used his power in it (he had passed most of his native strength into the Ring in order to dominate the wills of those with the other Rings of Power) to influence Ar-Pharazôn and his followers, the Kings’ Men. I think we can agree that Tolkien realized a discrepancy arises when we consider that Sauron’s body was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, leaving his spirit to carry the Ring back to Middle-earth. Tolkien didn’t seem to think that a flaw in the storyline, and rather bruskly dismissed it in his letter written in 1958, when things were still fresh on his mind.
This all sounds very plausible. But I can also imagine that Tolkien thought about it only later and maybe even changed his mind afterwards, concerning the question if Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor or if he had kept it in Barad-dur... But in this case I would also rather tend to accept as canon what Tolkien said last about it, no matter if it was only a private letter, it shows that he thought about it again to make the matter more plausible. On the other hand, Tolkien has also revised his opinion (which he already had changed in the course of time) and then changed it again, see e.g. the origin of the Orcs ;-)

In any case, no matter what he thought about it later, it shows that Tolkien was too inaccurate for the majority of the readers here. But since the Sil was never published by him (but by his son), one can't blame him for that. (However, currently I'm not sure how much is written about that in the appendices of LotR).

However, all of this (along with a few other things not mentioned here) indicates that the power of the One Ring was not just to manipulate the other ringbearers. The power of the Ring went far beyond that, especially when Sauron was in possession of the Ring.

In this context, by the way, I remember the discussion about the Dark Tower: that on the one hand it is said that Barad-dur could only be built with the help of the power of the Ring, while on the other hand this fortress was first of all built before the creation of the Ring.
 
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This all sounds very plausible. But I can also imagine that Tolkien thought about it only later and maybe even changed his mind afterwards, concerning the question if Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor or if he had kept it in Barad-dur... But in this case I would also rather tend to accept as canon what Tolkien said last about it, no matter if it was only a private letter, it shows that he thought about it again to make the matter more plausible. On the other hand, Tolkien has also revised his opinion (which he already had changed in the course of time) and then changed it again, see e.g. the origin of the Orcs
I have argued before and reässert here that “what fits best” is the best guide for determining how to pick and choose among the variegated tellings of Tolkien’s non-canonical tales.

What Tolkien published himself during his lifetime is “canon,” or at least what most of us seem to agree is “canon.” This leaves Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Letters, and the now fourteen volumes of History of Middle-earth (including the one-volume Index of volumes I-XII and Nature of Middle-earth), all non-canonical, but valuable.

It also places limits on JRR Tolkien’s musings toward the end of his life. In one clear example, Road Goes Ever On describes Galadriel as exiled from Aman because of her leadership in the Rebellion of the Noldor and her peremptory refusal to repent at the end of the First Age: Galadriel was therefore banned from returning to Valinor.

Yet in Tolkien’s later writings on Galadriel, she becomes an almost saintly figure, one he was at pains to distance from Fëanor’s rebellion. Along with this, Celeborn ceases to be a Sinda of Beleriand and becomes a Teleri of Eldamar. How shall we interpret this discrepancy? To which version of the several Tolkien presented, particularly toward the end of his life, should we adhere?

My argument is, Follow canon, and use what fits best in the greater legendarium for the rest. When we do that, Galadriel remains a Noldorin exile, the last of the royal House of Finwë remaining in Middle-earth, the last of the leaders of the Rebellion of the Noldor. Her lament to the Company of the Ring as they depart Lórien is heart-felt and incomparably sad: she believes her exile is permanent, and though she has rejected the Ring and will fight Sauron to the bitter end, she is convinced she will never leave Middle-earth without the severance of her body (hröa) and spirit (fëa): She will have to die to end her exile.

If you accept that interpretation, it also means that “what Tolkien wrote last” is not necessarily the correct guide to what is best to choose among the many entangled tellings of Tolkien’s tales.

As for his late musings on Orcs: whence came the Orcs that inhabited Middle-earth before the rising of the Moon and Sun if they were but the twisted descendents of Men – Men who had not yet awakened?

In any case, no matter what he thought about it later, it shows that Tolkien was too inaccurate for the majority of the readers here.
Bosh, now! That’s why we have The Tolkien Forum! :D

However, all of this (along with a few other things not mentioned here) indicates that the power of the One Ring was not just to manipulate the other ringbearers. The power of the Ring went far beyond that, especially when Sauron was in possession of the Ring.
Yes. I thoroughly agree with you!

In this context, by the way, I remember the discussion about the Dark Tower: that on the one hand it is said that Barad-dur could only be built with the help of the power of the Ring, while on the other hand this fortress was first of all built before the creation of the Ring.
Sauron set the foundations of Barad-dûr using his native strength, his powers as a Maia. Though this was done several centuries before he forged the One Ring, this power was part of his strength (his natural mental and spiritual power, possibly along with what he had learned and obtained in Arda (say, under Morgoth’s tutelage)) he transferred into the Ring. As a result, the foundations of Barad-dûr could not be destroyed unless the Ring was unmade. The victorious armies of the Last Alliance cast down the tower of Barad-dûr and all its fortifications, but they could not remove or impair its foundations.

This is much akin to Sauron’s physical being. He was disembodied twice near the end of the Second Age: once in the Downfall of Númenor, and again when Isildur cut the One Ring from his hand. Yet because the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could slowly gather his strength and take a new physical form (hröa).

Only two things could disrupt this. The first was the physical destruction of the Ring, as transpired when Gollum fell into the Crack of Doom with it: Sauron’s power was forever dispersed, he lost his physical form and any hope of ever becoming anything more than “a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape;” and the foundations of Barad-dûr were undone, so that its “[t]owers fell and mountains slid; [its] walls crumbled and melted, crashing down.”

The other was that another creature mastered the Ring. Galadriel believed she could, but with considerable effort, overcame the temptation to accept it when offered. Tolkien says that if Galadriel could master then Ring, then Elrond could also. But Tolkien cautions that, “It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.” (Letter 246; recall also Sam’s vision of “Samwise the Strong” causing Gorgoroth to blossom into a garden.)

Then Tolkien considers what might happen had Gandalf mastered the One Ring, even to the point of facing Sauron and keeping it for himself. “It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession… If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring: for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.” (Ibid.) Gandalf understood this from the beginning of The Lord of the Rings, as evidenced in his dramatic rejection of the Ring when Frodo begged him to take it.
 
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@m4r35n357: It certainly was not intended as an insult; a teasing, a ribbing, but not an insult or challenge. I don’t agree with you on this particular point, though I agree with most of your other positions I’ve seen in the forum. In either case, I respect your opinion; I just respectfully disagree.
np, we're good!
I think it was clearly Tolkien’s intention that Sauron had his Ring in Númenor, and that he used his power in it (he had passed most of his native strength into the Ring in order to dominate the wills of those with the other Rings of Power) to influence Ar-Pharazôn and his followers, the Kings’ Men. I think we can agree that Tolkien realized a discrepancy arises when we consider that Sauron’s body was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, leaving his spirit to carry the Ring back to Middle-earth. Tolkien didn’t seem to think that a flaw in the storyline, and rather bruskly dismissed it in his letter written in 1958, when things were still fresh on his mind.
If he did not take the ring, then that problem does not arise of course ;) I am about 70/30 on this ATM, as there is very little evidence that he would have needed the Ring. The only instance I can think of is his "defiance" of the thunderstorm on the temple roof (whether he staged this himself, or whether he was just using his powers as a Maia to protect himself against a thunderstorm meant to intimidate humans). I think he could have done everything else without the Ring (even Saruman can daunt humans with his voice alone), and then there are no supernatural contortions required to return it.

As to canon, there are many who will claim JRRT's final word on everything is canon, which is fine if you like to solve impossible puzzles, whereas I prefer to take JRRT's final consistent word on everything ;)
 
In any case, no matter what he thought about it later, it shows that Tolkien was too inaccurate for the majority of the readers here. But since the Sil was never published by him (but by his son), one can't blame him for that. (However, currently I'm not sure how much is written about that in the appendices of LotR).
The First Age is represented by the first few paragraphs in The Numenorean Kings in Appendix A. It is not hard to come up with a Silmarillion consistent with that ;)

At times it is worth reminding ourselves that our navel-gazing here is all directed at a back-story to LotR (since it was never published in its own right), and the level of detail and consistency Tolkien has provided goes way beyond what is necessary for that purpose.

So I am a very happy coney indeed!
 
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The Númenóreans did not defeat Sauron. They terrified his armies so that these deserted him in fear. Sauron’s “surrender” was a ruse, and a brilliant one at that. He could not otherwise get to Númenor: he had no navy, no seapower; he was unwelcome as an enemy even the fallen Númenóreans recognized as a threat; being taken as a “hostage” rather than as a prisoner implies that he was from the outset treated well and with respect, recognized as a royal person in and of himself.
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OK, me bad, let me prune it into a much clearer-Whole Numenor>Last Alliance>Sauron. As a result, the whole Numenor government would asset that the One Ring even didn't worth a little their concern at all. In addition, if Sauron's armed forces were so terrified that they even flight before any engage...could this be considered as much worse than a defeat but a total annihilation instead?:eek::eek:
 
This YouTuber has now also addressed the issue:


It's also worth reading the comments here, for example:

Honestly I'm most prone to thinking that it's just a matter of prose, and "taking up" the ring simply means to use it's power once again, ie for the first time since the sinking of Numenor.
 

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