The 🧝Elves of Mirkwood vs Rivendell

[1stvermont]

My 11-year-old so has read The Hobbit and has recently started FOTR and the questions are rolling in. He loves the military aspects of Middle-earth and wanted to know who would win in a war the elves under Thraduril, or Elrond. He had clearly put a lot of thought into the question and he listed the many reasons why he thought his side was stronger, but his evidence sadly came from the movies for the most part. So I was wondering what the knowledgable lore masters here might come up with. My son believes the Mirkwood elves had a larger population. I remember Karen Fonstad in the Atlas of ME calculated population numbers. Does anyone have those numbers handy?

 

[Olorgando]

I remember Karen Fonstad in the Atlas of ME calculated population numbers. Does anyone have those numbers handy?

Fonstad does have a section "Population" on pages 186 and 188 of my 1991 (paperback) edition. Unfortunately for your purposes, it is "only" a commentary on the maps shown on page 187, which give three color codings of "dense to sparse" populations of Elves, Men and Hobbits, but no numbers.

 

[1stvermont]

Fonstad does have a section "Population" on pages 186 and 188 of my 1991 (paperback) edition. Unfortunately for your purposes, it is "only" a commentary on the maps shown on page 187, which give three color codings of "dense to sparse" populations of Elves, Men and Hobbits, but no numbers.

Well, that's not good. I think I will consult Foster's complete guide to ME, see if anything turns up.

 

[1stvermont]

Fonstad does have a section "Population" on pages 186 and 188 of my 1991 (paperback) edition. Unfortunately for your purposes, it is "only" a commentary on the maps shown on page 187, which give three color codings of "dense to sparse" populations of Elves, Men and Hobbits, but no numbers.

I am looking on p 186-187 of it does appear Fonstad has the woodland realm with a wider area of population along with a small [like rivendell] area of dance population. That would indicate more elves remained in that area.

On p112 under the battle of the 5 armies, Fonstad puts Thranduil's army at least 1,ooo spearmen plus archers.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

In my opinion, the elves of Rivendell played a greater role in struggling with Sauron. So, I voted for them.

 

[Melkor]

I vote for Rivendell. For several reasons. Imladris have very good strategic position. For Rivendell elves would be easier to sit and wait for Thranduil's forces to come. Rivendell was besieged by Sauron's massive army during War of elves and Sauron and he didn't conquer Rivendell with his much much bigger army. Another thing is, that Lindond elves would probably side with Rivendell, so they can crush Thranduil's army from both sides. In Rivendell still live some Noldors (as well in Lindon), which are stronger than Sindarin and Nandorin elves of Mirkwood.

And on the other hand - Thranduil's halls resembles Menegroth. Dwarves of Nogrod and Sons of Fëanor really didn't have much trouble invade Menegroth.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

For those who don't have Fonstad, a couple of the maps are reproduced here:

https://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F56974945874

 

[1stvermont]

In my opinion, the elves of Rivendell played a greater role in struggling with Sauron. So, I voted for them.

Thanks for voting.

 

[1stvermont]

I vote for Rivendell. For several reasons. Imladris have very good strategic position. For Rivendell elves would be easier to sit and wait for Thranduil's forces to come. Rivendell was besieged by Sauron's massive army during War of elves and Sauron and he didn't conquer Rivendell with his much much bigger army. Another thing is, that Lindond elves would probably side with Rivendell, so they can crush Thranduil's army from both sides. In Rivendell still live some Noldors (as well in Lindon), which are stronger than Sindarin and Nandorin elves of Mirkwood.

And on the other hand - Thranduil's halls resembles Menegroth. Dwarves of Nogrod and Sons of Fëanor really didn't have much trouble invade Menegroth.

I should have mentioned he wanted to compare them in the third age. So the losses suffered by Rivendell earlier as well as Noldor leaving affected their strength. I would also add that Sauron had many forces busy not all concentrated on Elrond.

He did not intend to bring in allies such as Lorien or Lindon, simply a hypothetical what if they fought.

 

[Melkor]

But I compared third age Rivendell and third age Mirkwood. Rivendell still have Noldor elves in the third age. Not as many as in the second age, but I think that it still make a difference.

Yes, not all Sauron's forces were concentrated on Rivendell, but still were bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA.

 

[1stvermont]

Yes, not all Sauron's forces were concentrated on Rivendell, but still were bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA.

You could be correct of course, but I think the reason Rivendell was attacked had to do with geography and where the great elven rings were crafted, not due to its military threat.

 

[Melkor]

You could be correct of course, but I think the reason Rivendell was attacked had to do with geography and where the great elven rings were crafted, not due to its military threat.

Reason is irrelevant, the important thing is that Rivendell didn't fell under Sauron's siege.

 

[1stvermont]

Reason is irrelevant, the important thing is that Rivendell didn't fell under Sauron's siege.

But that could be said of many areas. Erebor did not fall when besieged by the forces of Sauron during the WOTR neither did Lothlorien. In fact, we could say Mirkwood repelled Sauron during "the battle under the trees" during the WOTR and avoided a siege while Elrond was defeated and fled to become besieged. Further, Thranduil joined with the elves of Lothlorien and captured Dol Guldur. If only result matter devoid of circumstances I think we must choose Mirkwood.

 

[Olorgando]

Wait a minute. There is no mention of any attack on Rivendell during the War of the Ring in the Third Age. Elrond's retreat before the forces of Sauron, and the founding of Rivendell, happened during the Second Age, and the War of Sauron and the Elves (which might be called War of the Rings in plural), mainly against Celebrimbor. Don't confuse this with what Gandalf, in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Three: The Third Age", "III The Quest of Erebor" mentions as a possibility, had Smaug not been destroyed during what was recorded in "The Hobbit".

 

[Melkor]

Wait a minute. There is no mention of any attack on Rivendell during the War of the Ring in the Third Age. Elrond's retreat before the forces of Sauron, and the founding of Rivendell, happened during the Second Age, and the War of Sauron and the Elves (which might be called War of the Rings in plural), mainly against Celebrimbor. Don't confuse this with what Gandalf, in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Three: The Third Age", "III The Quest of Erebor" mentions as a possibility, had Smaug not been destroyed during what was recorded in "The Hobbit".

But I talk about War of elves and Sauron, not about War of the ring

 

[Olorgando]

But I talk about War of elves and Sauron, not about War of the ring

But I compared third age Rivendell and third age Mirkwood. Rivendell still have Noldor elves in the third age. Not as many as in the second age, but I think that it still make a difference.
Yes, not all Sauron's forces were concentrated on Rivendell, but still were bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA.

Erm ... maybe you want to make up your mind which Age you're posting about? And then there's 1stvermont's clarification:

I should have mentioned he wanted to compare them in the third age.

In the Third Age, there is no mention of an attack on Rivendell. In the Second Age, during the War of the Elves and Sauron, there's no mention of either Lothlórien or the Greenwood Elves - which were ruled by Thranduil's father Oropher at the time; the latter fell during the War of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age.

 

[Melkor]

I just want to emphasize, that Rivendell is very well protected. Rivendell didn't fell during Sauron's siege in SA - and Sauron's army in that time was much bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA. So it's proven, that Rivendell have pretty good defence. So, even despite Rivendell has lesser army in TA than in SA, it cannot be conquered by Thranduil's army (if you have good defence, you can hold the place even with a few soldiers).

 

[Olorgando]

From Appendix B "The Tale of Years", section "The Second Age":

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon {to Gil-galad}. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.

Sauron's main attack, after the destruction of Eregion, would most likely have been the place of residence of his main enemy, Gil-galad the high king of the Noldor in Middle-earth (who had also centuries earlier rebuffed the advances under false pretenses of "Annatar"), not a defeated remnant of the forces that had fought him in Eregion. Sauron may not even have known the exact location of Rivendell, while he sure knew where Lindon was. So any deduction of Rivendell's ability to resist attack - nowhere is it described as a fortress! - must remain speculative.

 

[Melkor]

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Rivendell?so=search#Second_Age

Sauron laid siege to it but with the arrival of the Númenóreans the besieging force was destroyed.

 

[Olorgando]

I don't accept Internet sites of any form as authorities by themselves, unless they provide book and page of writings by JRRT, whether published by himself in his lifetime, or by Christopher Tolkien and other editors quoting from JRRT's previously unpublished writings. So, The Sil, UT, HoMe, John D. Rateliff's "The History of The Hobbit", Carl F. Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth", and any others who have had access to JRRT's writings.

So far, I have failed to find any mention of a siege of Rivendell in The Sil, UT, and the three lexicons about Middle-earth that I own. Perhaps somewhere in volumes 6 to 9 of HoMe dealing with LoTR?