⚔️Battle of the Behemoths: Fingolfin vs. Turin as Warriors

[Radaghast]

It is not written anywhere that Turin got help from Tulkas and Earendil. In fact, Tulkas cannot defeat Melkor. After Turin defeated Tulkas, Turin may have fought a Melkor who defeated Tulkas.

Tulkas cannot defeat Melkor? And when did Túrin defeat Tulkas?

 

[Elassar]

Why would Turin and tulkas fight eaachother in the first place? And tulkas already beat melkor before dagor dagorath

 

[Radaghast]

I don't think Tulkas and Túrin ever even interact.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Sorry, was it written anywhere that Turin fought/defeated Tulkas? That seems unlikely

ah sorry just a minor typo. actually; After Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights with Melkor who defeated Tulkas.

Why would Turin and tulkas fight eaachother in the first place? And tulkas already beat melkor before dagor dagorath

ah sorry just a minor typo. actually; After Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights with Melkor who defeated Tulkas.

 

[Radaghast]

ah sorry just a minor typo. actually; After Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights with Melkor who defeated Tulkas.

And what's the source for Melkor defeating Tulkas?

Here's the quote from The War of the Jewels:

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

And what's the source for Melkor defeating Tulkas?

Here's the quote from The War of the Jewels:

In the prophecy, it is written that Tulkas will fight Melkor first, but Melkor's death will be at the hands of Turin. So Melkor defeated Tulkas and Melkor was killed by Turin. If Tulkas had not been defeated, it would have been Tulkas, not Turin, who would have killed the Melkor. Now all that I have said and what you have defended cannot be further than speculation, because Tolkien did not elaborate further on the Dagor Dagorath prophecy.

 

[Radaghast]

That's not a source, that's just your inference. You're the one who's speculating.

In the text, Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fight Melkor at once, with Túrin dealing the killing blow. Nothing is said about Tulkas being defeated.

 

[Elassar]

It is a three on one wi Turin dealing the final blow. Tulkas, Eonwe and Turin didn't face melkor one at a time.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

That's not a source, that's just your inference. You're the one who's speculating.

In the text, Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fight Melkor at once, with Túrin dealing the killing blow. Nothing is said about Tulkas being defeated.

If you've noticed, the prophecy says that tulkas will wrestle with melkor first, but melkor will eventually be killed by Turin. The prophecy does not say that tulkas, turin and eönwe will attack melkor together. It is written only on the right and left of the tulkas who is who. And it's not necessary to view it as a 3v1 fight. If it were as you say, Turin and eönwe would have helped Tulkas while Tulkas was wrestling, or they would have fought together.

 

[Elassar]

The prophecy doesn't ever state that melkor defeated tulkas either.

 

[Radaghast]

If you've noticed, the prophecy says that tulkas will wrestle with melkor first, but melkor will eventually be killed by Turin. The prophecy does not say that tulkas, turin and eönwe will attack melkor together. It is written only on the right and left of the tulkas who is who. And it's not necessary to view it as a 3v1 fight. If it were as you say, Turin and eönwe would have helped Tulkas while Tulkas was wrestling, or they would have fought together.

So, only your inferences have merit? You're making quite a leap saying Melkor defeats Tulkas while I merely suggest Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fought Melkor together, which the text does seem to suggest. Why else would the text make a point of them standing stand side by side?

Here's the quote again.

In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

In your view they just stand around and each takes turns against Melkor (kind of like that scene in the finale of the deeply disappointing Avengers: Endgame).

 

[Turin_Turambar]

So, only your inferences have merit? You're making quite a leap saying Melkor defeats Tulkas while I merely suggest Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fought Melkor together, which the text does seem to suggest. Why else would the text make a point of them standing stand side by side?

Here's the quote again.



In your view they just stand around and each takes turns against Melkor (kind of like that scene in the finale of the deeply disappointing Avengers: Endgame).

My thought is in the style of superheroes fighting with Thanos in Avengers Endgame. because the prophecy says eönwe will stand on the right side of the tulkas and turin on the left side. It does not say that eönwe will attack from the right of tulkas against melkor, and turin will attack from the left. If Tulkas and Turin had not fought one-on-one against Melkor, it would have been said in the prophecy that eönwe on the right of Tulkas and Turin on the left would accompany. Or there would be an expression as if eönwe would help tulkas on his right and turin would help on his left.

 

[Radaghast]

HUH???