Are 🧝Legolas from 'The Fall of Gondolin' and 'the' Legolas the same?

[Asgemsuponasilverthread]

What do you think?

 

[Elthir]

I say no

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

My dear, has Legolas been born in the 1st Age?XD

 

[Elthir]

We aren't even certain (or at least I'm not) that Legolas was the true name of this character in The Fall of Gondolin, as opposed to being a later confusion of two names (see below), but anyway, at the time FG was written, this character was a Noldo . . . noting another elven character named Gimli.

"Note: Laigolas = green-leaf (...) But perhaps both were his names, as the Gnomes delighted to give two similar sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast, Turin Turambar, etc. Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two." JRRT The Book of Lost Tales

And although I'm aware that in a later conception of Gondolin its inhabitants included Sindarin Elves, in the later linguistic scenario, Tolkien characterized the name Legolas as representing a Silvan version of Sindarin Laegolas . . .

. . . and although I'm aware that some have argued that maybe Laegolas of Gondolin ended up in Mirkwood and (if so) the name became Legolas, there are other factors involved . . . just for one example, how to keep Legolas away from the Sea until the events of The Lord of the Rings.

In short I've seen various arguments attempting to fuse these characters into the same being, but for myself, I see no great reason to go there, and haven't been sold yet.

 

[Wastrel]

My dear, has Legolas been born in the 1st Age?XD

The Legolas in LOTR was born early in the 3rd Age. His birth year is given in the "Tale of Years."

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

What do you think?

This is a good topic, and I would say most certainly not. If I remember rightly, and it appears that I do, he was born in the Third Age. I believe it is talked about in The Tale of Years...

The Legolas in LOTR was born early in the 3rd Age. His birth year is given in the "Tale of Years."

And it seems I am not wrong.

Question answered.

 

[Elthir]

The Legolas in LOTR was born early in the 3rd Age. His birth year is given in the "Tale of Years."

I must disagree there

Unless there's something gnew in (G)NOME, as far as I gnow, Legolas' year of birth is not gnown.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Elthir! I've been gnawing my gnuckles, wondering where you were!

 

[Elthir]

LOL! I'm here S-ES!

When I was gone it seems someone put stuff in my house. I changed Elite to Cat in a Coat for example, but I don't know how to get rid of that "Wanderer" thingy (it's from a Jackson film! run away!)
. . . and all these Badges?

Badgers -- yes please!

Badges -- who needs these?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Check here:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/badges.30334/

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Elthir! I've been gnawing my gnuckles, wondering where you were!
View attachment 14524

That cat is very cute. Glad to have you back, Elthir!

 

[Eljorahir]

The Fall of Gondolin: "...and Legolas was with them, whose eyes were like cats' for the dark, yet could they see further."

The Fellowship of The Ring, (The Great River): "'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'"

Same name, exceptional night vision even for an elf...sounds like the same guy to me.

I looked for Legolas' birth indicated in the Tale of Years, Third Age and couldn't find it. For those who say it's there, please cite the year. Maybe I missed it.

 

[Elthir]

Same name, exceptional night vision even for an elf...sounds like the same guy to me.

We know that when Tolkien wrote this very early version of The Fall of Gondolin that this "Legolas" was
a Gnome (one of the Noldor), but even if JRRT later added a notable Sindarin element to Gondolin (which he did, despite that he seems to forget this when writing his late Glorfindel texts) . . .

. . . don't we have to keep this Legolas away from the sea/gulls, until the late Third Age?

 

[Eljorahir]

We know that when Tolkien wrote this very early version of The Fall of Gondolin that this "Legolas" was
a Gnome (one of the Noldor), but even if JRRT later added a notable Sindarin element to Gondolin (which he did, despite that he seems to forget this when writing his late Glorfindel texts) . . .

. . . don't we have to keep this Legolas away from the sea/gulls, until the late Third Age?

I can see you have read much more than me. My conclusion about Legolas in Gondolin is based only on what I find in The Silmarillion and The Fall of Gondolin (The Original Tale). I guess there are other writings which will contradict my conclusion.

JRRT seems to state directly in "Of The Noldor in Beleriand" that the population of Gondolin was majority Sindarin:

"Then Ulmo returned to the sea, and Turgon sent forth all his people, even to a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin's following ,and a yet greater host of the Sindar; and they passed away, company by company, secretly, under the shadows of Ered Wethrin, and they came unseen to Gondolin..."

So, given that Legolas was a Sindar, there were lots of Sindar in Gondolin, and "both Legolas's" are referred to as having exceptional vision, I conclude they are the same Legolas.

Before reading your post, I thought "Gnome" was just an early synonym for "elf". Thanks, I found the reference indicating Gnome means Noldor.

I checked the 4 mentions of Legolas in The Fall of Gondolin and did not see him called a "Gnome". Does this come from other writings?

 

[Elthir]

So, given that Legolas was a Sindar, there were lots of Sindar in Gondolin, and "both Legolas's" are referred to as having exceptional vision, I conclude they are the same Legolas.

But again, what of the Sea, and Galadriel's warning to Legolas, and Legolas' alas for the gulls.

The Sindar of Gondolin under Turgon appear to have hailed from Nevrast -- itself a name given first to the coastlands south of the Firth, but afterwards to the lands whose shores lay between Drengist and Mount Taras. From Quenta Silmarillion (constructed version here)

"At the coming of the Noldor many of the Grey-elves lived in Nevrast near to the coasts, and especially about Mount Taras in the South-west (. . .) and Turgon dwelt long in those halls that he named Vinyamar, under Mount Taras beside the sea."

That noted, maybe one can come up with reasons why an Elf (with a Silvanized name) -- again, an Elf that Galadriel warned about the Sea -- had never seen the sea before he went to Gondolin. But if so,
that's not the end of this history. For examples . . .

What of post-Fall of Gondolin: where did the refugees go?

Or what about the post-sinking of Beleriand: where was this Legolas before the migration eastward? Arguably Lindon, I'd guess.

That's not to say I haven't seen some pretty "inventive" fan stuff in order to continually keep Legolas of Mirkwood away from the Sea until the late Third Age . . .

. . . I have.

But haven't bought any of it . . . so far

Especially given the alternative, that Tolkien simply re-used an old name for The Lord of the Rings (like with Gimli).

Legolas' shot was indeed remarkable, and at night, but was he "night sighted" like the Gnome of Gondolin? Given the descriptions in the early tale, this Legolas at least seems exceptional, even among other Gnomes.

But then again, back to The Lord of the Rings, what about Elvish eyes in general? " . . . even in the cool sunlight of mid-day few but Elvish eyes would have marked them, until they were close at hand." The Riders of Rohan

some guessing

If, in the early 1950s re-write of The Fall of Gondolin (Unfinished Tales) Tolkien indeed decided to keep his old character, I'd guess the name would have been Sindarin Laegolas -- or at least, JRRT notes that that form is the purer Sindarin form compared to the Silvan-ish "Legolas" . . . but alas we will seemingly never know, as Tolkien abandoned this version too early in the tale.

It's possible that JRRT might have invented a new name for this character here -- even something to do with his eyesight, as Gnomish Legolast referred to his keen sight (see below). In any case, Gnomish as a language does not exist in Middle-earth.

Again, here's the much older linguistic scenario, in which "Legolas" might not even have been this character's "true" name! "Note: Laigolas = green-leaf (...) But perhaps both were his names, as the Gnomes delighted to give two similar sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast,
Turin Turambar, etc. Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two." JRRT The Book of Lost Tales

I checked the 4 mentions of Legolas in The Fall of Gondolin and did not see him called a "Gnome". Does this come from other writings?

When Tolkien wrote this very early (long prose) Fall of Gondolin, all the Elves of Gondolin were Gnomes/Noldoli.

And as I noted as an aside -- in a very late text (later than the text that introduced the Sindarin element in Gondolin), JRRT wrote again: "There is no escape from this. Gondolin is in the Silmarillion said to have been built and occupied by a people of almost entirely Noldorin origin." JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Midle-Earth

Well, "almost" aside, this actually runs counter to what is said in The Silmarillion, as Christopher Tolkien himself notes, but he [Christopher Tolkien] also notes the original conception: that Gondolin was peopled entirely by Noldor -- and as I say, it's in this context in which we find the "night sighted Gnome "Laigolas Legolast (Legolas)"

🐾

 

[Eljorahir]

But again, what of the Sea, and Galadriel's warning to Legolas, and Legolas' alas for the gulls.

The Sindar of Gondolin under Turgon appear to have hailed from Nevrast -- itself a name given first to the coastlands south of the Firth, but afterwards to the lands whose shores lay between Drengist and Mount Taras. From Quenta Silmarillion (constructed version here)

"At the coming of the Noldor many of the Grey-elves lived in Nevrast near to the coasts, and especially about Mount Taras in the South-west (. . .) and Turgon dwelt long in those halls that he named Vinyamar, under Mount Taras beside the sea."

That noted, maybe one can come up with reasons why an Elf (with a Silvanized name) -- again, an Elf that Galadriel warned about the Sea -- had never seen the sea before he went to Gondolin. But if so,
that's not the end of this history. For examples . . .

What of post-Fall of Gondolin: where did the refugees go?

Or what about the post-sinking of Beleriand: where was this Legolas before the migration eastward? Arguably Lindon, I'd guess.

That's not to say I haven't seen some pretty "inventive" fan stuff in order to continually keep Legolas of Mirkwood away from the Sea until the late Third Age . . .

. . . I have.

But haven't bought any of it . . . so far

Especially given the alternative, that Tolkien simply re-used an old name for The Lord of the Rings (like with Gimli).

Legolas' shot was indeed remarkable, and at night, but was he "night sighted" like the Gnome of Gondolin? Given the descriptions in the early tale, this Legolas at least seems exceptional, even among other Gnomes.

But then again, back to The Lord of the Rings, what about Elvish eyes in general? " . . . even in the cool sunlight of mid-day few but Elvish eyes would have marked them, until they were close at hand." The Riders of Rohan

some guessing

If, in the early 1950s re-write of The Fall of Gondolin (Unfinished Tales) Tolkien indeed decided to keep his old character, I'd guess the name would have been Sindarin Laegolas -- or at least, JRRT notes that that form is the purer Sindarin form compared to the Silvan-ish "Legolas" . . . but alas we will seemingly never know, as Tolkien abandoned this version too early in the tale.

It's possible that JRRT might have invented a new name for this character here -- even something to do with his eyesight, as Gnomish Legolast referred to his keen sight (see below). In any case, Gnomish as a language does not exist in Middle-earth.

Again, here's the much older linguistic scenario, in which "Legolas" might not even have been this character's "true" name! "Note: Laigolas = green-leaf (...) But perhaps both were his names, as the Gnomes delighted to give two similar sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast,
Turin Turambar, etc. Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two." JRRT The Book of Lost Tales



When Tolkien wrote this very early (long prose) Fall of Gondolin, all the Elves of Gondolin were Gnomes/Noldoli.

And as I noted as an aside -- in a very late text (later than the text that introduced the Sindarin element in Gondolin), JRRT wrote again: "There is no escape from this. Gondolin is in the Silmarillion said to have been built and occupied by a people of almost entirely Noldorin origin." JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Midle-Earth

Well, "almost" aside, this actually runs counter to what is said in The Silmarillion, as Christopher Tolkien himself notes, but he [Christopher Tolkien] also notes the original conception: that Gondolin was peopled entirely by Noldor -- and as I say, it's in this context in which we find the "night sighted Gnome "Laigolas Legolast (Legolas)"

🐾

Thanks for the very thorough response. You've given me a lot to consider. 😎

Thanks for the very thorough response. You've given me a lot to consider. 😎

Ah, now I get your point about Legolas and the sea. At first, I thought Legolas could have lived by the sea in the First Age and felt no compulsion to sail into the West, because the Ban was in place, and also the time had not yet come where all elves were feeling compelled to leave Middle-earth. No elves were sailing west during the Ban (I believe).
Now, I found the reference in the chapter, "The Last Debate", where Legolas states he's never seen the sea before in his life. So, he could not have lived with Turgon in Vinyamar.

 

[Olorgando]

I just had a thought: Legolas (son of Thranduil, grandson of Oropher) was at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell.
Also there was someone who definitely had also been in Gondolin: Glorfindel, reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth (a very rare, if not singular event with Elves). Shouldn't there have been some mention of their having known each other over 6,500 years earlier?

And as to Oropher: in a passage in "Unfinished Tales" he is stated as having come from Doriath after the end of the First Age. Another entry states that Thranduil's building of his cave fortress in northern Mirkwood was inspired by Thingol's Menegroth (apparently placing Thranduil in Doriath too, though this conclusion is shaky). How would Legolas, as son and grandson of Sindar (Grey-Elves) of Doriath, have ended up in Gondolin?

 

[Elthir]

I just had a thought:

Me too!

Mine tired me out though . . . time for a nap.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

What do you think?

I cannot believe that they are the same person. Remember, there is also a Denethor in The Silmarillion, I think, as it does in Present-day Middle-Earth, names were reused frequently, and while it is possible that they were of the same line, or took the same name in honor of the person, I think Legolas being the same person is vague and farfetched, and also... Is The Fall of Gondolin even completely canon?

 

[Elthir]

I don't consider the early Fall of Gonolin canon (according to my definition of canon), but that aside, Christopher Tolkien described this text briefly (Unfinished Tales):

"It is written in the extreme archaistic style that my father employed at that time, and it inevitably embodies conceptions out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion in its published form. It belongs with the rest of the earliest phase of the Mythology, "The Book of Lost Tales"

Though that said, Christopher also noted that the early 1950s revision (as far as it went) "yet retained many of the essentials of the story written in his youth."

However, we didn't even get close to meeting any night sighted Elf in the version written decades later!

And even that version, found in Unfinished Tales (not intended as a chapter in Quenta Silmarillion but as a long prose account of one of the Great Tales) dates to the early 1950s. There's some later writing too (see Maeglin in The War of the Jewels, for example), but in any case, enter the multiple opinions about what Tolkien, if he had finished an updated version, "would have" kept in, tossed out, revised in some measure (or reworded), or added . . .

. . . in that light we have this very late note, for example: "The Duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision" JRRT, marginal note, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, note 10, Last Writings