🧝Feanor leaving the Noldors behind.

[Copia]

So a thing that I never have been able to wrap my head around. When Feanor and the Noldors chased Morgoth to Beleriand, and after they sluaghtered the Teleri's and took their ships.
Feanor ordered his men to burn every ship so Fingolfin and the rest of the Noldors couldnt use them.
I just dont understand why? Yes there was bad blood between Feanor and Fingolfin, but Fingolfin still followed him.
Also Feanor tried to recruit the Teleri to his army to make it more powerfull.

Was Feanor just THAT spitefull? Did he just want to be cruel against Fingolfin? We know he just got filled with more and more pride, and was more and more full of himself the more he got closer to his goal.

I dont think it's ever stated, so whats your thoughts on this?

 

[d4rk3lf]

He thought (wrongly), that sooner or later, Fingolfin, and all his followers will betray him, and go back to Valinor, anyway.
With this action, he wanted to be the first to brake the alliance, before they brake it.
He was totally wrong, of course.

I've read somewhere that in some later Tolkien revisions, one of the Feanor sons stayed on ship, and by mistake, he was burned alive with the ships.
That's also crazy.

 

[Copia]

Ahh I see. Well thats a very good explanation. I've completely missed that. I cant believe how deluded Feanor was at this stage.

 

[Alcuin]

I thought Fëanor burned the ships of the Teleri so that none of the Noldor who had (mis)used them could desert the quest and return to Aman. I think it is rather implied that one of his twin sons had this very idea in mind when he spent the night aboard one of the ships and was unintentionally roasted by his father, who in his fey mood denied any regret.

In 1519, a mere 503 years ago this very month, Cortés burned his ships so that none of his men could desert and avoid making war upon the Aztecs. Like Fëanor, Cortés faced serious consequences if he returned whence he came, to Cuba. Unlike Fëanor, he managed to overcome his more numerous and powerful opponents.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

I thought Fëanor burned the ships of the Teleri so that none of the Noldor who had (mis)used them could desert the quest and return to Aman. I think it is rather implied that one of his twin sons had this very idea in mind when he spent the night aboard one of the ships and was unintentionally roasted by his father, who in his fey mood denied any regret.

In 1519, a mere 503 years ago this very month, Cortés burned his ships so that none of his men could desert and avoid making war upon the Aztecs. Like Fëanor, Cortés faced serious consequences if he returned whence he came, to Cuba. Unlike Fëanor, he managed to overcome his more numerous and powerful opponents.

Thus, it's for military tactical purpose, in order to force all the personnel's morale into max boost, like Xiang Yu's act of smashing all his amphibious transport used for retreat in the battle of Julu, right?
But JRRT seemed...give no "direct" description to mention this, or it's not necassary at all to describe purpose of such desperate attempt, after all, Feanor even dared declare wwars against Valar for the Similaris.

 

[Copia]

The reason that he was afraid of treason really went over my head, so thanks guys.
I only just assumed he didnt want anyone to go and get Fingolfin and his army.
Stupid move either way, Feanor.

 

[d4rk3lf]

The reason that he was afraid of treason really went over my head, so thanks guys.

Well, if you think of it, it's pretty common that these type of guys (narcissistic, selfish.. etc) have a tendency to have paranoia.
And when you have paranoia, all kind of crazy possibilities are in their paranoic heads, and they analyze these possibilities until they start believing it.

Maybe Feanor trigger was kinslaying and the fact that Fingolfin people didn't support massacre of their kin (after they found out that Teleri didn't started it)

 

[Copia]

Yes it fits Feanor's paranoia and character really well. At least at that stage. He such an amazing written character, but damn I hate him for so many tings, haha.

 

[Gothmog]

I thought Fëanor burned the ships of the Teleri so that none of the Noldor who had (mis)used them could desert the quest and return to Aman. I think it is rather implied that one of his twin sons had this very idea in mind when he spent the night aboard one of the ships and was unintentionally roasted by his father, who in his fey mood denied any regret.

In 1519, a mere 503 years ago this very month, Cortés burned his ships so that none of his men could desert and avoid making war upon the Aztecs. Like Fëanor, Cortés faced serious consequences if he returned whence he came, to Cuba. Unlike Fëanor, he managed to overcome his more numerous and powerful opponents.

That would have been the simple clear answer if all the Noldor were already in Middle-earth. This was not the case and his son asked about using the ships to ferry the rest over. The issue is that Feanor was afraid of "treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason" plus his arrogance and therefore instead of increasing his force then destroying the ships to prevent desertion, he committed "treason of kin unto kin" first.

 

[Copia]

Yes I belive that it was Mhaedros who was the only one who didnt want to burn the ships.

 

[Elthir]

Quenta Silmarillion Tradition

The fear of treachery (spoken in the Prophecy of the North and the Doom of the Noldor) manifested when the company arrived in the North and the debate began -- for now many repented the road, and cursed Feanor, and none were willing to abide while others were ferried first (as the ships were too few for all) -- "and already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor" -- thus Feanor, having met with his sons, decides to take the ships and sail off with "all whom he deemed true to him"

Later Maedros asks what ships and rowers he will send back to Fingolfin. But Feanor laughed: "None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the Ships burn!"

Then Maedros alone stood aside (Maedhros in the constructed Silmarillion). Then we have the much later tale that no one calls . . . .

The Death of Ambarussa Amarthan

In this iteration, Feanor, Curufin and a few of the Noldor (most close to Feanor) burn the ships, and many of the Noldor did not know this was going to happen until it was too late.

And here Feanor says: "Now at least I am certain that no faint-heart or traitor among you will be able to take back even one ship to the succour of Fingolfin and his folk." In addition "it was thought (and no doubt Feanor guessed this also)" that Feanor's youngest son Ambarussa was going to sail his ship back and rejoin Nerdanel.

Curious Sidenote

In a late text (see The War of the Jewels, Maeglin), Tolkien refers three times to the five sons of Feanor! Christopher Tolkien wonders if this was a slip (despite being thrice mentioned), or that possibly his father had come to believe that both "Ambarussa brothers" (JRRT named two brothers Ambarussa, which is a tale almost unto itself) were burned at Losgar.

I rather hope this was a slip (the three examples are sort of "clustered" in a section of text); but in any case, I do adopt the death of the younger Ambarussa into the Legendarium.

 

[Alcuin]

The issue is that Feanor was afraid of "treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason" plus his arrogance and therefore instead of increasing his force then destroying the ships to prevent desertion, he committed "treason of kin unto kin" first.

The fear of treachery (spoken in the Prophecy of the North...) manifested when the company arrived in the North ... "already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor" ... Feanor says: "Now at least I am certain that no faint-heart or traitor among you will be able to take back even one ship ... [I]t was thought (and ... Feanor guessed...)" that Feanor's youngest son Ambarussa was going to sail his ship back and rejoin Nerdanel.

“The treacherous are ever distrustful.”

How many times did Fëanor personally betray other Elves? The Kinslaying at Alqualondë, burning the Ships at Losgar, accidentally immolating one of his own sons – what else?

 

[Gothmog]

“The treacherous are ever distrustful.”

How many times did Fëanor personally betray other Elves? The Kinslaying at Alqualondë, burning the Ships at Losgar, accidentally immolating one of his own sons – what else?

I agree, but you were only addressing one aspect of the burning. I expanded it to include his distrust of the rest of the Noldor.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

So a thing that I never have been able to wrap my head around. When Feanor and the Noldors chased Morgoth to Beleriand, and after they sluaghtered the Teleri's and took their ships.
Feanor ordered his men to burn every ship so Fingolfin and the rest of the Noldors couldnt use them.
I just dont understand why? Yes there was bad blood between Feanor and Fingolfin, but Fingolfin still followed him.
Also Feanor tried to recruit the Teleri to his army to make it more powerfull.

Was Feanor just THAT spitefull? Did he just want to be cruel against Fingolfin? We know he just got filled with more and more pride, and was more and more full of himself the more he got closer to his goal.

I dont think it's ever stated, so whats your thoughts on this?

I am guessing that Feanor thought that Fingolfin and the others among the Noldor would betray him and return to Valinor, or he feared that they would try to take the Silmarils and would have rather them just stayed among the Telerin shores.

Yes, Feanor was CERTAINLY spiteful. Remember, most of the Noldor picked Fingolfin over Feanor, and my guess is with the passion and fire that Feanor harnessed within him, that made him incredibly angry and grudging towards Fingolfin.

 

[Copia]

Yes I agree with that. Stupid Feanor, a LITTLE more calm and a little less kinslaying they could maybe have won over Morgoth sooner..

 

[Gothmog]

Yes I agree with that. Stupid Feanor, a LITTLE more calm and a little less kinslaying they could maybe have won over Morgoth sooner..

No matter how calm Feanor was there was no chance of winning without the Valar's help

The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor:
Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.

 

[d4rk3lf]

No matter how calm Feanor was there was no chance of winning without the Valar's help

Well, there is a possibility that they could defeat Morgoth if following things happened:
- No oath is given
- No kinslaying is made
- Feanor agrees to give silmarils to Yavana to revive the two trees
- Feanor not rushing all the time

Even in the history we know, they got very close.
How many years Angand was under the heavy siege?

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Well, there is a possibility that they could defeat Morgoth if following things happened:
- No oath is given
- No kinslaying is made
- Feanor agrees to give silmarils to Yavana to revive the two trees
- Feanor not rushing all the time

I wonder how drastically the story would have changed if it had gone as you just highlighted here. My suspicion is that nothing would be the same, really. Maybe we would still have the Two Trees of Valinor, rather than Anar and Isil!

 

[Gothmog]

Well, there is a possibility that they could defeat Morgoth if following things happened:
- No oath is given
- No kinslaying is made
- Feanor agrees to give silmarils to Yavana to revive the two trees
- Feanor not rushing all the time

Even in the history we know, they got very close.
How many years Angand was under the heavy siege?

There is no possibility of the Noldor defeating Morgoth "without the Valar's help". If there was no oath, no Kinslaying, Feanor agreeing to Yavana having the Silmarili, Feanor not rushing away to Middle-earth. It is only with the Help of the Valar that Morgoth could be defeated.

All the time of the siege? "not all the power of the Noldor, before the Siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining Silmarils of Fëanor." So how close did they get?

All the years that Angband was under siege by the Noldor served only one purpose in the defeat of Morgoth, it gave time to the Valar to wait while Morgoth weakened himself by dispersing his native power throughout his creatures and through the fabric of Arda itself. This allowed the hosts of the Valar to defeat Morgoth without the total destruction of Arda. At no time were the elves anywhere near a victory.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

There is no possibility of the Noldor defeating Morgoth "without the Valar's help". If there was no oath, no Kinslaying, Feanor agreeing to Yavana having the Silmarili, Feanor not rushing away to Middle-earth. It is only with the Help of the Valar that Morgoth could be defeated.

All the time of the siege? "not all the power of the Noldor, before the Siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining Silmarils of Fëanor." So how close did they get?

All the years that Angband was under siege by the Noldor served only one purpose in the defeat of Morgoth, it gave time to the Valar to wait while Morgoth weakened himself by dispersing his native power throughout his creatures and through the fabric of Arda itself. This allowed the hosts of the Valar to defeat Morgoth without the total destruction of Arda. At no time were the elves anywhere near a victory.

This is true. The Valar's keen spiritual and physical power manifested in the great skills and talents of sorts, would be the only chance for true victory.

Feanor may have tried to defeat Morgoth, but such a goal would never truly be accomplished without the Valar.