If Gollum plan succeeded...

[d4rk3lf]

... do you really think that Shelob would just ignore The One Ring?

I mean, she is a daughter of Maia, and I assume, she have some of Ungoliant magic in herself.
She had huge ambition to eat, eat, and eat (who could assume that, considering how humble her mother was?).

Don't you think that ring wouldn't try to trick her to get out of her cave, and try finding fresh meat all over the world, and would expose her to Sauron that way?

Actually, better question would be:
Do you think that ring would just ignore Shelob, and let Gollum take it back, while it knows that Gollum would just crawl back in, who knows what hole, never to get out?
I think ring would try to avoid that as much as it can.

 

[1stvermont]

... do you really think that Shelob would just ignore The One Ring?

I mean, she is a daughter of Maia, and I assume, she have some of Ungoliant magic in herself.
She had huge ambition to eat, eat, and eat (who could assume that, considering how humble her mother was?).

Don't you think that ring wouldn't try to trick her to get out of her cave, and try finding fresh meat all over the world, and would expose her to Sauron that way?

Actually, better question would be:
Do you think that ring would just ignore Shelob, and let Gollum take it back, while it knows that Gollum would just crawl back in, who knows what hole, never to get out?
I think ring would try to avoid that as much as it can.

Perhaps she would swallow it like a sil?

I honestly dont remember the detail in the books, but if the movies are correct, and she stuns her prey, that would be the chance for Gollum to get the ring before she discovered it.

That is a great question, I am really not sure. I would think it would prefer Gollum knowing he is corumptable and was in contact with Mordor orcs before, but where could Shelob escape to? But I am not entirely sure the ring could revel itslef to others not using it, otherwise Sam and Frodo would never have gotton as far as they did and some orc would have brought it to Sauron. So I think Gollum's plan would have worked.

 

[d4rk3lf]

I honestly dont remember the detail in the books,

I think Tolkien himself mentioned in the book that she is not interested in the rings.. but I wonder if ring would be interested in her.

Btw, Gollum plan )from the books) was that AFTER Shelob eats Frodo and Sam and throw away their clothes (and bones), he will find the ring.
Gollum also believed that Shelob is not interested in ring at all.

I would think it would prefer Gollum knowing he is corumptable and was in contact with Mordor orcs before

I am pretty sure the ring wanted to avoid Gollum.
It wouldn't abandoned him, if he was of any use... he'd stay in the Misty mountains forever.
I am also pretty sure that the Gollum, again possessing the ring, would just crawl into some mountain far away and stay hidden, and I think ring knew that too.
However that doesn't mean the the Gollum greed for the ring was any lesser.

but where could Shelob escape to?

Not escape.
On the contrary, the ring would give her fail secure, and she would feel like she have an extreme power that nobody could stand in her way.
It would raises her hunger greatly, so she would just exit her cave searching for more food (preferably not orkish).
That way, the Sauron could spot her easily, and set her a trap.

Nevertheless ring exaggerating Shelob power in Shelob mind, she would indeed, I think, be very powerful.
But would be still pretty far of preventing Sauron of catching his cat

Just my speculations:

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

... do you really think that Shelob would just ignore The One Ring?

I mean, she is a daughter of Maia, and I assume, she have some of Ungoliant magic in herself.
She had huge ambition to eat, eat, and eat (who could assume that, considering how humble her mother was?).

Don't you think that ring wouldn't try to trick her to get out of her cave, and try finding fresh meat all over the world, and would expose her to Sauron that way?

Actually, better question would be:
Do you think that ring would just ignore Shelob, and let Gollum take it back, while it knows that Gollum would just crawl back in, who knows what hole, never to get out?
I think ring would try to avoid that as much as it can.

This is an interesting topic.

I believe Tolkien says himself that she would have no interest in Rings. Remember, it wasn't really her portion to take highly important objects possessing power. While some of her kind devoured the Silmaril, they had no clear purpose for actually using it as far as I am aware. All that is Evil seems to me a servant of Morgoth, whether they knew it or did not. And so, I think the Ring would sooner follow an Orc or Shelob than Gollum.

Yes, Gollum is somewhat Evil in the book, but he did not start that way. He is altogether completely useless to Sauron, besides for hiding the Ring from Frodo or others who would try to use or destroy it. Save for that, Gollum would hide the Ring from Sauron himself, and that would be highly unhelpful, and even detrimental to the plans of Sauron.

So, in response: Perhaps Shelob would devour the Ring, or it would try to use her to find it's master, but I highly doubt that the Ring would risk going back with Gollum.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

Maybe Gollum hoped that Shelob wouldn't be able to wear the ring (no fingers ). I'm not sure whether she could wear it or not.
If Gollum's plan had succeeded, Gollum would have become a ghost sooner or later and Sauron would have taken the ring back. I think the ring didn't return to Gollum for two main reasons. Firstly, the ring didn't want to do it as turning Gollum into a ghost was too time-consuming. Secondly, the ring stayed with Frodo and Sam not by its own will. It stayed with Frodo and Sam because goodness is a strong power which controls the destiny of the world. Tolkien didn't mention Eru in LOTR but Eru's presence can still be felt in the LOTR trilogy.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Maybe Gollum hoped that Shelob wouldn't be able to wear the ring (no fingers ). I'm not sure whether she could wear it or not.
If Gollum's plan had succeeded, Gollum would have become a ghost sooner or later and Sauron would have taken the ring back. I think the ring didn't return to Gollum for two main reasons. Firstly, the ring didn't want to do it as turning Gollum into a ghost was too time-consuming. Secondly, the ring stayed with Frodo and Sam not by its own will. It stayed with Frodo and Sam because goodness is a strong power which controls the destiny of the world. Tolkien didn't mention Eru in LOTR but Eru's presence can still be felt in the LOTR trilogy.

A ghost? Are you talking about making Gollum disappear? I don't consider the lack of visibility becoming a ghost. After all, more is there than their fea. The hroa remains, it just doesn't appear to those who are not immersed in the world of spirits. The only reason for this in my opinion, is that Sauron was a spirit, so the Ring had to be in the spirit world that Sauron was in, and any that wore it, would need to have this. I think the reason for no clear speech of Gollum disappearing is that Gollum just didn't wear the Ring. He kept it, and loved it, treasured it, but didn't necessarily wear it.

It stayed with Frodo and Sam for the purposes of goodness and Light beyond, yes. It stayed because of the power of the Mighty Illuvatar, and the Music of Ainulindale which spoke of all these events undoubtedly before they even become a shadow of thought in the minds of Elves or Men.

 

[Copia]

Maybe it's just not more complicated than in Gollum's mind the Ring would just be there with Frodo's dead body or bones and he could simply pick it up and walk away when Shelob was done with him.

But the thought is interseting on what Shelob would do if she knew and understood what the Ring was. I seem too recall that she and Sauron was not friends or allies, but they had a mutual understanding of Sauron was happy with her guarding the pass, and she was happy to stay there alone and occasionally was served orcs and prisoners from Sauron as food. But I do not think that she would be like "Oh here is Sauron's Ring, better bring this to him". I think she simply would not care at all, if she did understand the meaning of it. But thats just my thoughts

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Maybe it's just not more complicated than in Gollum's mind the Ring would just be there with Frodo's dead body or bones and he could simply pick it up and walk away when Shelob was done with him.

But the thought is interseting on what Shelob would do if she knew and understood what the Ring was. I seem too recall that she and Sauron was not friends or allies, but they had a mutual understanding of Sauron was happy with her guarding the pass, and she was happy to stay there alone and occasionally was served orcs and prisoners from Sauron as food. But I do not think that she would be like "Oh here is Sauron's Ring, better bring this to him". I think she simply would not care at all, if she did understand the meaning of it. But thats just my thoughts

That is possible. Gollum did not always think everything through completely, and he may have thought or knew that Shelob would not understand the importance of the Ring, and would simply leave Frodo to die with the Ring still on him, before returning to devour her victim. Gollum then would have (of course) not doubted his abilities to go and take the Ring right there before she got the chance to consume Frodo's lifeless hroa. This would explain his actions -- rather well. After all, despite his lies, Gollum didn't care even remotely about Frodo, and would not have missed him, particularly because then he would have his precious Ring.

I don't think Shelob would have known what it was at all, but it is an intriguing proposition indeed. From my own recollection, Shelob was in a position much akin to Ungoliant, and neither worked for Sauron nor against him. She was sort of an independent enemy. I doubt she would have understood the true meaning of the Ring and it's incredible significance.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

A ghost? Are you talking about making Gollum disappear?

I mean that everybody who kept the ring for too long could become a nazgul and a servant of Sauron.

 

[d4rk3lf]

but they had a mutual understanding

I wouldn't use word "mutual" here.
Yes, Sauron was pleased she guarded that entrance of his kingdom, but I don't think she cared for that at all. She just stayed there, at home, because it was her home.

I mean that everybody who kept the ring for too long could become a nazgul and a servant of Sauron.

I don't think it works that way with The One Ring.
The One Ring is the "one to rule them all", and even it brings mortals to unseen world, when they are wearing it, it doesn't mean Sauron could control them at any point in time (even after a couple thousands of years).
If Frodo had the strength, he could use a ring, and could command to all of the Nazguls. He could even (if he had enormous strength) command to those that wears 3 elven rings (Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel), or at least, read their thoughts.
The One ring consumes a mortal, but it doesn't subdue anyone to Sauron will.
Other power rings do exactly that. They subdue owners to The One Ring, and whoever wears it.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I believe Tolkien says himself that she would have no interest in Rings.

Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body. . .

She, like her First Age mother, is the personification of nihilism, as Melkor and Sauron are personifications of egotism.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body. . .

She, like her First Age mother, is the personification of nihilism, as Melkor and Sauron are personifications of egotism.

Thanks for this. As I had remembered, I was right-- but it is always good to have citation and clarity.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I copy pasted that from another thread. Tangential to the subject, but here's something on Shelob from the standpoint of structure and symbolism:
Post in thread 'Are Ungoliant and Bombadil opposites of each other?' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/ar...dil-opposites-of-each-other.23482/post-516320

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I copy pasted that from another thread. Tangential to the subject, but here's something on Shelob from the standpoint of structure and symbolism:
Post in thread 'Are Ungoliant and Bombadil opposites of each other?' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/ar...dil-opposites-of-each-other.23482/post-516320

Hmm... Seems like an intriguing topic. I shall have to read it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Copia]

I wouldn't use word "mutual" here.
Yes, Sauron was pleased she guarded that entrance of his kingdom, but I don't think she cared for that at all. She just stayed there, at home, because it was her home.

Well yes. But by mutual I meant if they didnt fed her she would either a) go somehwere else or b) go hunting in Mordor.
But yes I agree she probably didn't have a sence of duty in guarding that tunnel.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Well yes. But by mutual I meant if they didnt fed her she would either a) go somehwere else or b) go hunting in Mordor.
But yes I agree she probably didn't have a sence of duty in guarding that tunnel.

This makes sense. She was basically just living completely for herself, and making temporary alliances that were neither bonds nor were they relationships, to stay alive.

 

[Copia]

Yes. I am very certain I read that they had a mutual understanding, wether it was in LOTR, appendix or somewhere else that Tolkien wrote, but Im not 100% sure.
Regardless I think this is very likely as she as stated had go somewhere else to feed if the food was not brought to her.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body. . .

She, like her First Age mother, is the personification of nihilism, as Melkor and Sauron are personifications of egotism.

I actually changed my question (as I remember that passage, and wouldn't dare to contradict Tolkien : ).
I changed it to: Would the Ring try and manipulate Shelob in order to be exposed to Sauron?
Make her want some new fresh meat, outside of her cave... increase her hunger into extreme level...
Make her believe she is unstoppable.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I am pretty sure the ring wanted to avoid Gollum.
It wouldn't abandoned him, if he was of any use... he'd stay in the Misty mountains forever.
I am also pretty sure that the Gollum, again possessing the ring, would just crawl into some mountain far away and stay hidden, and I think ring knew that too.

I don't think this is necessarily the case; Gollum's lust for the Ring, his hatred for "Thief Baggins", the torture at the hands of Sauron, and his desire for revenge, had by this time expanded his horizons far beyond going back to hiding in a hole somewhere, as shown in his argument with himself during The Passage of the Marshes chapter:

'Not for Him!'
'No, sweet one. See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Smeagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from the Sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it,, we wants it,, we wants it!'

Edit: Sorry, you posted while I was typing. To address that, see my post in the thread I linked. I believe Shelob's function in the structure of the story precludes her having any interest in the Ring; I doubt it could influence her in any way.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I actually changed my question (as I remember that passage, and wouldn't dare to contradict Tolkien : ).
I changed it to: Would the Ring try and manipulate Shelob in order to be exposed to Sauron?
Make her want some new fresh meat, outside of her cave.
Make her believe she is unstoppable.

I don't think so. What good would that do? Sauron sought the Ring, and only did he manipulate the desires of power when he feared the Ring was in danger. If perhaps, Shelob intended to devour it, he may have placed such thoughts into her mind that she would not consume it, but rather she would protect it. The only time where the Ring actually consciously, of course created and bound to Sauron, make Frodo desire to take the Ring for his own and to dominate all, is at the very edge of the Cracks of Doom, where if Sauron had not planted such desire, Frodo would have destroyed the Ring.

Sauron wanted the Ring, and the Ring wanted, and was bound to Sauron. Sauron was displeased with Gollum's hoarding of the Ring, and having one rise up against him with it's power was a fear very great and deepening in his mind. He would not have so lightly cast aside his upper-hand, I should think.