Did the Ainur really "Create" or "Add" anything in the Singing?

[Ent]

I am pondering the issue of ‘terminology’ again, digging into what Tolkien specifically said.

We also know that each Ainur came from a different part of Ilúvatar’s mind, and understood only his part of Ilúvatar initially, and grew but slowly in harmony from there. Thus it was only regarding that which they understood they could “adorn” anything in any way.

“But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.” SIL AINULINDALË

We then know Ilúvatar brought forward his 3 themes and willed the Ainur to “adorn” them (if they willed).
And we know the word “adorn” means to “make more beautiful or attractive”, from late Middle English via Old French from Latin adornare, from ad- ‘to’ + ornare ‘deck, add luster’.
(Several other synonyms could apply. Decorate, furnish, garnish, embellish etc.)

Following the Singing, Ilúvatar leads them out to the Void and showed them a vision there, “giving them sight where before was only hearing” (a remarkable statement..!), so they could see their Song.

And he says:

‘Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’ SIL AINULINDALË

As we ponder this, how do we see the ‘origination’ of all things, including the ‘evil’ Balrogs, Dragons, Ungoliant, etc. that some would like to say “could not have come from Ilúvatar because he does not/cannot create evil”?

It SEEMS to me this would inevitably lead to the conclusion that indeed ALL that is evil comes from the “adornment” of things that originated in Ilúvatar’s mind by Melkor. That is, all that is twisted and evil is of his discord.

And it also follows that the reason Ilúvatar would have told them this is to, if you will, ‘put them in their place’ – not as a chastisement, but as a reminder that they are his creation also, and only have what (power, grace, honor etc.) they have because of his will. (From knowledge should come humility.)

Grasping this fully (as this Enting thinks he is beginning to) has extensive ramifications in how we think and speak about things.

(It’s also terribly consistent with his particular Faith views of course.)

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Perhaps Melkor wasn't evil at the start. He simply wanted to dominate the Song, and this dominance led to discord within it, though it wasn't necessarily evil or corrupted during the entirety of the Ainulindale. He was the greatest of the Ainur, and his power contained that of all the other 14 Valar - considering that, he couldn't have been tainted by Darkness since the Valar are beings of Light.

I would say Melkor turned evil because of how he decided to carry out this dominance - through destroying the works of the Valar, he therefore went against their Will and the Will of Eru, so in that sense he would have become corrupted/evil from the first moment he attempted to destroy the Valar's creations.

Melkor made himself fall due to his own actions, not because of Eru creating evil within Melkor in the first place, since he (probably) didn't.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

As we ponder this, how do we see the ‘origination’ of all things, including the ‘evil’ Balrogs, Dragons, Ungoliant, etc. that some would like to say “could not have come from Ilúvatar because he does not/cannot create evil”?

It SEEMS to me this would inevitably lead to the conclusion that indeed ALL that is evil comes from the “adornment” of things that originated in Ilúvatar’s mind by Melkor. That is, all that is twisted and evil is of his discord.

My belief is that Tolkien would have made Illuvatar much akin to the Christian God. Meaning, that indeed for there to be the choice of free will, between Good or Evil, Evil must have also been given as an option, and indeed, some chose such. For Illuvatar harbored such love for the world, that he gave each, yes, from the Valar to the Hobbits, the choice to love and serve him, or to not.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

My belief is that Tolkien would have made Illuvatar much akin to the Christian God. Meaning, that indeed for there to be the choice of free will, between Good or Evil, Evil must have also been given as an option, and indeed, some chose such. For Illuvatar harbored such love for the world, that he gave each, yes, from the Valar to the Hobbits, the choice to love and serve him, or to not.

An interesting point of view, and a valid answer indeed.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

An interesting point of view, and a valid answer indeed.

Yours is also, in turn.

 

[Gothmog]

Perhaps Melkor wasn't evil at the start. He simply wanted to dominate the Song, and this dominance led to discord within it, though it wasn't necessarily evil or corrupted during the entirety of the Ainulindale. He was the greatest of the Ainur, and his power contained that of all the other 14 Valar - considering that, he couldn't have been tainted by Darkness since the Valar are beings of Light.

I would say Melkor turned evil because of how he decided to carry out this dominance - through destroying the works of the Valar, he therefore went against their Will and the Will of Eru, so in that sense he would have become corrupted/evil from the first moment he attempted to destroy the Valar's creations.

Melkor made himself fall due to his own actions, not because of Eru creating evil within Melkor in the first place, since he (probably) didn't.

There is no "Perhaps" Melkor was much like the rest of the Ainur in terms of "Good and Evil". He could be thought of a becoming corrupted during the Ainulindale but the start of his change is stated in the story.

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.
Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound.

It was the different type of thoughts that gave rise to the discord that we see as Evil. However, it would seem that Ilúvatar has a different view on this.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Yes, Ilúvatar is indeed the source of all that we call "Good and Evil" within Arda but is not the Cause of either. While Ilúvatar gave the Themes to the Ainur the Themes themselves could not be called good, evil, or anything we know about. It is the "Adornments that we see and react too.

 

[Ent]

My belief is that Tolkien would have made Illuvatar much akin to the Christian God. Meaning, that indeed for there to be the choice of free will, between Good or Evil, Evil must have also been given as an option, and indeed, some chose such. For Illuvatar harbored such love for the world, that he gave each, yes, from the Valar to the Hobbits, the choice to love and serve him, or to not.

You touch well on it here.... with just one small shade of difference.
All Eru created (substitute 'God' at will)) was 'good'. Eru can be nothing else... ever.
Even Melkor in his creation was 'good'.
The one thing Eru created that leads to 'evil' or a departure from the Light, is 'choice'. (He did not create darkness in any way.)
Then, he gave a 'command'. "This is my will. Sing in harmony and in unison."
In the case of Melkor, Eru was actually more lenient than the Christian God.
He gave Melkor TWO choices in the 'command'. "Sing in harmony and in unison..... if you will."
In other words, Melkor could participate within the guidelines of the command given... or he could 'opt out' - both of which were permissable.

The Christian God gave only one command, with no associated option. "Do not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil."

The issue for both is "I am god. All good resides in me, and flows out from me. I have created you. You belong to me. Your "best good" is to adhere to me and follow my way of holiness." (Remember, the Ainur were created "holiest of all."

But they had also been empowered with 'choice.'

Eve chose to eat, and Adam with her. They chose contrary to God. God had specified the results of disobedience.
Melkor, likewise, chose an unauthorized, unpermitted, unempowered option. (in every way.) He chose to SING. He chose to sing NOT harmony. In the end he chose to sing not in UNISON. He also refused the only authorized option - to opt out.

In every way, his rebellion against the ultimate Good that Eru held out to him, was completely rejected.

It is that 'choice' that caused his downfall... just as with Eve first, and then Adam (who bore the greater responsibility).

We could bring satan in from the Christian side as well. Highest of the created beings. Splendid in every way. With a choice. Serve for his best ultimate good, or don't. He chose wrongly. (And like Melkor, took a number of the created beings with him.)

Some try to blame pride, anger, rage, etc.
But at the end of the day, it's simple 'self will'. I want to be god. I don't want another god. I will make my own choices about what's best for me. And in the end... it spells catastrophe.

BUT - again Eru as with the Christian God is both omnipotent, AND omniscient... seeing the end from the beginning. Nothing is a surprise to him.
He does not 'create' the rebellion. He does not 'allow' the rebellion. (He can do neither of these by his very infinitely holy nature.) He just plans, seeing all that will happen, so that in the end his purposes stand in spite of the 'choice' he created.

It's a bit of a deep and complex thing... one this Enting has spent many, many years studying... and the similarities are so evident to me that in spite of Tolkien's desire not to make things 'allegorical', in this sense the (more than) similarities are, without contention, undeniable.

There are many other similarities. However, there are also many divergences.
So this is yet another arena where we can see folks 'arguing' both sides of the matter - and one might say 'quite successfully' - as long as there is an unwillingness to allow 'both sides of the 'argument' to be, and that's just fine thanks..!'

There is no "Perhaps" Melkor was much like the rest of the Ainur in terms of "Good and Evil". He could be thought of a becoming corrupted during the Ainulindale but the start of his change is stated in the story.

It was the different type of thoughts that gave rise to the discord that we see as Evil. However, it would seem that Ilúvatar has a different view on this.

Yes, Ilúvatar is indeed the source of all that we call "Good and Evil" within Arda but is not the Cause of either. While Ilúvatar gave the Themes to the Ainur the Themes themselves could not be called good, evil, or anything we know about. It is the "Adornments that we see and react too.

Please note my response to Elbereth Vala Varda on this one.
We differ on two points here.
1) - it was not his thoughts that corrupted him. It was his choice to execute them contradictory to the 'allowed' courses of action.
2) - Eru is not the "source" of evil. He is the source only of good... and of giving the Ainur choice.

Once they choose contrary to his revealed will, (his 'command', and note the language of it he uses..."I WILL that you adorn this..." and specifies precisely how that will will be carried out...) then the 'choice' comes into play. Only behaving consistent with the Ultimate Good's WILL, do we stay in the Light.

Once Melkor chose his own self-will (thoughts) over Eru's, he sealed his doom - unless he repented. (Which as we read, many of the Ainur kept hoping eventually he would.)

 

[Gothmog]

Please note my response to Elbereth Vala Varda on this one.
We differ on two points here.
1) - it was not his thoughts that corrupted him. It was his choice to execute them contradictory to the 'allowed' courses of action.
2) - Eru is not the "source" of evil. He is the source only of good... and of giving the Ainur choice.

Once they choose contrary to his revealed will, (his 'command', and note the language of it he uses..."I WILL that you adorn this..." and specifies precisely how that will will be carried out...) then the 'choice' comes into play. Only behaving consistent with the Ultimate Good's WILL, do we stay in the Light.

Once Melkor chose his own self-will (thoughts) over Eru's, he sealed his doom - unless he repented. (Which as we read, many of the Ainur kept hoping eventually he would.)

I do not understand your point 1. I said "the different type of thoughts that gave rise to the discord". How could he choose to execute them without the different types of thought giving rise to the choice??

How can you claim that Eru is not the Source of evil??
Eru himself states that he is indeed just that!

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

I said "Yes, Ilúvatar is indeed the source of all that we call "Good and Evil" within Arda but is not the Cause of either." If Eru was not the "Source" then there would be nothing that we call "Evil". However, the cause of what we call evil was Melkor's choices. The idiotic idea that "GOD" is only the source of "GOOD" is what gives the greatest problems for the "Single God of All". You then need a second "GOD" to be the source of "EVIL".

 

[Ent]

How could he choose to execute them without the different types of thought giving rise to the choice??

My point is that it is not the 'thought' that caused the discord or his corruption. It was his ACTION (the choice) that caused the fall from the state of grace.
We think many things that we do not carry out. All of us. All the time. A thought rejected knowing it's contrary to the Good/Light is not destructive. it's the choice to EXECUTE that thought that brings the darkness into the light.

lúvatar is indeed the source of all that we call "Good and Evil" within Arda but is not the Cause of either."

I did slightly misunderstand this.
However, Illuvatar IS both the source and the ultimate Cause of all that is good and light. He created it. And the Ainur were originally the "holiest of all".
That is ultimate 'causation'.
However, he is neither the source, nor the cause, of the discord and disobedience/rejection of the Light he is, and created.

We can certainly disagree on this point. It's at the very root of the contention regarding Who God really Is. And countless millions are lined up on one side of the coin, while a far fewer number are lined up on the other.

In the end, Eru will have eliminated all the darkness, and "even men will participate in the singing, and it will be so in accord with him it will immediately "BE".

(I paraphrase that just a little... and it is of course allegorical.)

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

You touch well on it here.... with just one small shade of difference.
All Eru created (substitute 'God' at will)) was 'good'. Eru can be nothing else... ever.
Even Melkor in his creation was 'good'.
The one thing Eru created that leads to 'evil' or a departure from the Light, is 'choice'. (He did not create darkness in any way.)
Then, he gave a 'command'. "This is my will. Sing in harmony and in unison."
In the case of Melkor, Eru was actually more lenient than the Christian God.
He gave Melkor TWO choices in the 'command'. "Sing in harmony and in unison..... if you will."
In other words, Melkor could participate within the guidelines of the command given... or he could 'opt out' - both of which were permissable.

The Christian God gave only one command, with no associated option. "Do not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil."

The issue for both is "I am god. All good resides in me, and flows out from me. I have created you. You belong to me. Your "best good" is to adhere to me and follow my way of holiness." (Remember, the Ainur were created "holiest of all."

But they had also been empowered with 'choice.'

Eve chose to eat, and Adam with her. They chose contrary to God. God had specified the results of disobedience.
Melkor, likewise, chose an unauthorized, unpermitted, unempowered option. (in every way.) He chose to SING. He chose to sing NOT harmony. In the end he chose to sing not in UNISON. He also refused the only authorized option - to opt out.

In every way, his rebellion against the ultimate Good that Eru held out to him, was completely rejected.

It is that 'choice' that caused his downfall... just as with Eve first, and then Adam (who bore the greater responsibility).

We could bring satan in from the Christian side as well. Highest of the created beings. Splendid in every way. With a choice. Serve for his best ultimate good, or don't. He chose wrongly. (And like Melkor, took a number of the created beings with him.)

Some try to blame pride, anger, rage, etc.
But at the end of the day, it's simple 'self will'. I want to be god. I don't want another god. I will make my own choices about what's best for me. And in the end... it spells catastrophe.

BUT - again Eru as with the Christian God is both omnipotent, AND omniscient... seeing the end from the beginning. Nothing is a surprise to him.
He does not 'create' the rebellion. He does not 'allow' the rebellion. (He can do neither of these by his very infinitely holy nature.) He just plans, seeing all that will happen, so that in the end his purposes stand in spite of the 'choice' he created.

It's a bit of a deep and complex thing... one this Enting has spent many, many years studying... and the similarities are so evident to me that in spite of Tolkien's desire not to make things 'allegorical', in this sense the (more than) similarities are, without contention, undeniable.

There are many other similarities. However, there are also many divergences.
So this is yet another arena where we can see folks 'arguing' both sides of the matter - and one might say 'quite successfully' - as long as there is an unwillingness to allow 'both sides of the 'argument' to be, and that's just fine thanks..!'

Thanks for the time of this post. I can tell that you went through things thoroughly in thought. This sheds a great deal of light on my response, and I do not doubt that I will feel the desire to participate further in this discussion-- minding your post.

Hannon-le.

 

[Gothmog]

My point is that it is not the 'thought' that caused the discord or his corruption. It was his ACTION (the choice) that caused the fall from the state of grace.
We think many things that we do not carry out. All of us. All the time. A thought rejected knowing it's contrary to the Good/Light is not destructive. it's the choice to EXECUTE that thought that brings the darkness into the light.



I did slightly misunderstand this.
However, Illuvatar IS both the source and the ultimate Cause of all that is good and light. He created it. And the Ainur were originally the "holiest of all".
That is ultimate 'causation'.
However, he is neither the source, nor the cause, of the discord and disobedience/rejection of the Light he is, and created.

We can certainly disagree on this point. It's at the very root of the contention regarding Who God really Is. And countless millions are lined up on one side of the coin, while a far fewer number are lined up on the other.

In the end, Eru will have eliminated all the darkness, and "even men will participate in the singing, and it will be so in accord with him it will immediately "BE".

(I paraphrase that just a little... and it is of course allegorical.)

You seem to have a problem with my comment about Giving Rise To. The cause was indeed his Action, but he could not have chosen the Action without the thought giving this option, to put it another way, it is the Thought Giving Rise to the Choice.

Iluvatar is the source and ultimate Cause of All That Is! Nothing more, Nothing less.
Good and Evil is a subjective view that is seen and claimed by those in Arda. Iluvatar sees things far differently as he sees the whole and that all of the Discord and the Harmony of the Ainur only adds to the Glory and the story of the Themes he gave to the Ainur.