Why are female 🧌orcs never mentioned?

[Kiredor]

Hey everyone.
Why is it, that female orcs are never mentioned? Surely, there must have been some sort of fathering and birthing of baby orcs along the way. This has bothered me for a long time, and I can’t find anything written about them by Tolkien (JRR or Christopher).
Can any of of you, my fellow wise and knowledgeable TTF family, furnish me with the answer.
Many thanks in anticipation.

 

[Ent]

Why is it, that female orcs are never mentioned?

My dear Kiredor.
Why 'female Orcs' are never expressly mentioned I do not know.
But we do read this in Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion,, Chaptere 3, "Of the coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor"

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."

The Children of Ilúvatar are of course the Elves, Men and Dwarves. (The first two being the Children of his choice, the last being the Children of his adoption. (Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 2: Of Aulë and Yavanna) - "But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.")

So there must have been female Orcs. Perhaps they looked so much like the males that it was hard to distinguish the difference.

I'm not sure I ever specifically read Tolkien saying "male" Orcs either, so perhaps that they are all "male" is an assumption on our part?!

That's the best I've got. There are many better educated than I am here, so maybe they can do better.

 

[Kiredor]

My dear Kiredor.
Why 'female Orcs' are never expressly mentioned I do not know.
But we do read this in Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion,, Chaptere 3, "Of the coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor"

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."

The Children of Ilúvatar are of course the Elves, Men and Dwarves. (The first two being the Children of his choice, the last being the Children of his adoption. (Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 2: Of Aulë and Yavanna) - "But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.")

So there must have been female Orcs. Perhaps they looked so much like the males that it was hard to distinguish the difference.

I'm not sure I ever specifically read Tolkien saying "male" Orcs either, so perhaps that they are all "male" is an assumption on our part?!

That's the best I've got. There are many better educated than I am here, so maybe they can do better.

Many thanks for this and also taking the time for such an in-depth reply. I think you hit the nail on the head with, ‘and multiplied after the manner of the children of Illuvatar.’
If anyone else get back to me with another reason, I’ll let you know.
Many thanks again.

 

[Ent]

Many thanks again.

My pleasure.
You've kindled my interest and I'm now going to search out the Dwarves and whether female Dwarves are specifically mentioned.

We know the ones Aule made were all 'male' and became the 7 Kings, who were put to sleep, not to be awakened before the "Firstborn" (Elves), though they were awakened before the "Followers" (Men).

I knew about the Orc situation because I've so recently read across it again...

But where do the female Dwarves come in? We may assume from from the statement noted above, the Dwarves being "children of adoption" and "...reproduce after the manner of the children of Ilúvatar" that there are Dwarven females. Yet... is there anything more firm in the Writings that locks down on the question?

I cannot answer that.
(By the way, I love research..!)

If you know of anything re: the Dwarves, let me know.

By the way @Kiredor, do keep in mind that Tolkien vascillated a bit in his writings, particularly later writings, about the actual origins of the Orcs.
From Elves, or other? He had different opinions.

I stick with the "Elves" theory only because it's in Silmarillion... though this was a compilation by Christopher, his son, given the interpretation J.R.R. wrote into that work's fundamentals at that time.

However, regarding "female orcs" I do not believe J.R.R. ever wrote any contradicting verbiage to "they multiplied after the manner of the children of Ilúvatar".

Thus, for the answer to your original question I think that's the 'safe bet' as some say.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Hey everyone.
Why is it, that female orcs are never mentioned? Surely, there must have been some sort of fathering and birthing of baby orcs along the way. This has bothered me for a long time, and I can’t find anything written about them by Tolkien (JRR or Christopher).
Can any of of you, my fellow wise and knowledgeable TTF family, furnish me with the answer.
Many thanks in anticipation.

If I had to hazard a guess as to why they're not seen or talked about:
They're likely kept away from the battlefield which is where we see them most often.

 

[Ent]

If I had to hazard a guess as to why they're not seen or talked about:

Yes, I was pondering this too. Great observation.

They were all "bred" in the depths of Morgoth's and Sauron's darkest pits. And Saruman too, 'bred' his 'half-orcs and goblin-men" (as called in LoTR) in the depths of his pits as well.

"goblin-men" spoken there in LoTR is the only place I've found so far where a 'male/female' reference is made, but it could lead us to suspect generally that 'only the men' were indeed seen.

As Melkor, Sauron and Saruman hid all their dark deeds, and devoted their dark corruptions specifically to what they were corrupted to a purpose for, it's very likely the 'female' components were somehow isolated/restrained specifically for the purposes of breeding.

We can recall it is said of Sauron on his return, "...and he gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it, and the Orcs were at his command and multiplied like flies." (Silmarillion). That would take some intensity of focus and purpose..!

One can only wonder at what sort of existence they may have had..!

 

[Kiredor]

If I had to hazard a guess as to why they're not seen or talked about:
They're likely kept away from the battlefield which is where we see them most often.

Good point. It just pains me that this a large anomaly in my understanding of how orcs (and goblins I suppose also) came into the world.

Yes, I was pondering this too. Great observation.

They were all "bred" in the depths of Morgoth's and Sauron's darkest pits. And Saruman too, 'bred' his 'half-orcs and goblin-men" (as called in LoTR) in the depths of his pits as well.

"goblin-men" spoken there in LoTR is the only place I've found so far where a 'male/female' reference is made, but it could lead us to suspect generally that 'only the men' were indeed seen.

As Melkor, Sauron and Saruman hid all their dark deeds, and devoted their dark corruptions specifically to what they were corrupted to a purpose for, it's very likely the 'female' components were somehow isolated/restrained specifically for the purposes of breeding.

We can recall it is said of Sauron on hisreturn, "...and he gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it, and the Orcs were at his command and multiplied like flies." That would take some intensity of focus and purpose..!

One can only wonder at what sort of existence they may have had..!

Mmm. Sounds like, in the absence of actual JRR description, assume that goblins are bred the same as orcs?
This is indeed an enigma.
Thank you for your endeavours in trying to. clear this up for me.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Mmm. Sounds like, in the absence of actual JRR description, assume that goblins are bred the same as orcs?

Goblins ARE orcs. The movies differentiate the two by simply having cave-orcs be called Goblins.

 

[Elthir]

Tolkien once wrote:

"There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known." JRRT, the Munby letter [not published in The Letters of JRRT]

 

[Ent]

assume that goblins are bred the same as orcs?

Indeed I would do so.
And don't forget too, that there is some difference of opinion as to whether "goblins" and "orcs" are 'the same' or 'different'.

At times, such as the LoTR reference I made above, Tolkien SEEMS to refer to them as different things. Yet at times, he also clearly references them as being the same thing. A study of "goblins vs. orcs" in Hobbit, vs. in LoTR, vs. elsewhere, is an entertaining study.

(So is "wargs" vs. 'wolves' the Orcs rode, vs. 'werewolves' by the way.)

fun fun fun fun fun.

the Munby letter

Sir Elthir, do you know how one can get hold of this 'Mundby letter' (and a few others I've referenced here and there from time to time) that aren't published?

Or are they just not available, outside of special access to the Archives, or a dispensation from TTE, or something?

 

[Kiredor]

Tolkien once wrote:

"There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known." JRRT, the Munby letter [not published in The Letters of JRRT]

Ah. This is definitive and looks like final confirmation. If JRR himself didn’t write about them, that would explain their omission.
My eternal thanks to you Elthir. I will now just have to accept that they existed but were not important.

 

[Elthir]

Sir Elthir, do you know how one can get hold of this 'Mundby letter' . . .

Concerning how some letters come to light [outside the book The Letters of JRRT I mean], one way could be: a letter appears in a public auction, which then gets reported by fans on the web. Another
way might be: scholars like Hammond and Scull publish something they have special access to.

Another way is to try to steal one, but my attempt did not go well [it involves someone throwing
an iron doorstop at me].

And don't forget too, that there is some difference of opinion as to whether "goblins" and "orcs" are 'the same' or 'different'.

I think this matter has been definitively answered by Tolkien himself however, in an author-published source -- the third edition Hobbit -- and in posthumously published sources [dated fairly late] -- notably Tolkien's explanations to other real world translators when translating The Lord of the Rings
into Swedish, German, and so on [Nomenclature].

Tolkien ultimately landed on the English word "goblin" being a translation of the Westron word orc.

There are differences between orcs of course, but there are other words to denote this, like uruk and snaga, for example. There's a distinction noted by English "hobgoblin" too, but again, this is to be considered a translation, and a hobgoblin is still a goblin in any case [or in Westron, an Orc].

Or think of Quendi "Elves" for example: one is just the Quenya term, the other its translation.

 

[Ent]

Tolkien ultimately landed on the English word "goblin" being a translation of the Westron word orc.

OH YES... i remember reading of this now..! (I must be aging.) Thank you.
(My own conclusion had been they were the same on the 'preponderance of the evidence', then I heard of that. Wonder how I had lost it.)

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'll just mention that Gamling's "these half-orcs and goblin-men" has led to endless debate too.

 

[Elthir]

I'll just mention that Gamling's "these half-orcs and goblin-men" has led to endless debate too.

True Sir. But I just translate every word into English: "these half-goblins and goblin-men"

. . . and job done

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

You'd think so, but . . .

 

[Elthir]

You've kindled my interest and I'm now going to search out the Dwarves and whether female Dwarves are specifically mentioned.

I could add some direction if you like [where to find some references] but if you'd rather I not, say nothing, and I'll run away and leave you to it.

 

[Ent]

I could add some direction if you like [where to find some references] but if you'd rather I not, say nothing, and I'll run away and leave you to it.

feel free to add. i won't get to it for a few hours yet...
thanks much.

 

[Elthir]

Too late

I'm not going to tell you to look at a text found in The Later Quenta Silmarillion (The War of the Jewels), first edition Houghton Mifflin, hardback, page 211, where Tolkien is "much exercised about the details of the making of the first Dwarves" [and mates] . . .

. . . or the reproduction of a section from letter 212, that follows it.

In brief, Christopher Tolkien sums up his father's musings as being abandoned: "In the final text, as printed in The Silmarillion, my father evidently abandoned the question of the origin of the female Dwarves, finding it intractable and the solutions unsatisfactory. Moreover in the finished form the element of the Eldest (Durin) being distinct from the others, and without mate, finds no place."

I know I once wrote out a brief summary of Tolkien's 5 musings [A to E] referred to here by CJRT, but
I can't find it. And anyway, that will leave something to discover -- or remind yourself with, if you've already read it.

Once again, I haven't checked NOME though. Lazy.

 

[Ent]

Once again, I haven't checked NOME though. Lazy.

Yet you have left me both information, and leads to further research - all that I both love and need.
"Lazy" is not a category I would frequently put you into, by the way. (Though there are some I would. 😁)

(not to worry, they are all good categories...nothing from the Dead Marshes or worse.)