Why were the Nazgul (minus the Witch King) so hard to 💀kill?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Even Gandalf, who was a freaking Mair and was able to kill a Balrog, seems like he was incapable of destroying these things.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I guess because they were tied to the 9, which in turn was tied to the One? I could be totally wrong but that's what I've always assumed. As long as the One Ring was around, they would be as well. The Witch King was killed because Merry stabbing him broke the spell or whatever it was

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

A good thread on the Witch King's fate: https://thetolkien.forum/threads/the-doom-of-the-witch-king.11199/

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

The Nazgul seemed to possess no true physical form - after they were corrupted by Sauron with the Nine Rings, they eventually became Wraiths with no physical hróa, so to speak. They were more spiritual in a sense, and dwelt in the "unseen" realm, where through the rings and under their bound influence to the One they could interact with the normal "seen" realm. I suppose this would have been a major factor as to why they were so hard to kill - you're not killing a physical body, but an essence that doesn't even fully dwell in the normal world.

As for Gandalf, he was a Maia - but remember also that Balrogs were corrupted Maiar, and thus in rank they would have been the same. And it was a draw - he killed the Balrog, but also met his own end before he was resurrected by the Grace of the Valar and Ilúvatar.​

As long as the One Ring was around, they would be as well.

Indeed - but the deeper reason (I suppose) is as I mentioned above - they had no physical form. If they had physical form like they did when they were still Men, it would have been far easier to kill them, since they would have been in the "seen" world. It is their essence of being Ringwraiths within the "unseen" world that makes them so difficult to be vanquished.​

 

[Ent]

I guess because they were tied to the 9, which in turn was tied to the One?

This seems to be the concensus from the reading I've (quickly) done.
Because Sauron directly enslaved them by the gift of the controlled rings, their fate is said to be tied to Sauron's power - "rather to the One Ring's" directly.

"They could only be harmed by weapons having spells on them."
The Witch King of course also had a prophecy in view, which was 'he would not be killed by a man.' Which is true.

The blade made in the North-kingdom used by Merry "had spells" tied to it, which undid him... then the blade driven by a woman finished his current form off. It is uncertain, given that their fate is tied to the One Ring.

(Remember when they were unseated from the horses at the ford and 'lost their black cloaks which gave them form' on their attempted passage across into Elrond's land, they were disembodied and were "crippled without their hoirses" - and their cloaks gave them their shape and form. They needed to reform again. As Gandalf said, "...there is nothing more to fear from them at present.")

Given that the One Ring still existed, who knows. Had it not been destroyed soon thereafter, it is possible the Witch King could have reformed yet again, or maybe even was by the time they came to the Gate to distract the unsuspecting Sauron.

"At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom." Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 946). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

While Tolkien does not specifically say 'the 9..." neither does he exclude the possibility.


"Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one. To attempt by device or ‘magic’ to recover longevity is thus a supreme folly and wickedness of ‘mortals’. Longevity or counterfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Eä) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith."
.... Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Letters Of J.r.r. Tolkien (p. 286). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

 

[Aldarion]

The elven blade used by Frodo "had spells" tied to it, which undid him... then the blade driven by a woman finished his current form off. It is uncertain, given that their fate is tied to the One Ring

It was not Frodo, it was Merry, and it was not elven blade - it was blade forged in old Arnor during wars against Angmar. But yes, it did have spells on it.

 

[Ent]

It was not Frodo, it was Merry, and it was not elven blade - it was blade forged in old Arnor during wars against Angmar. But yes, it did have spells on it.

Oops thanks. Yes I've changed it to Merry above. (that's what I get for posting while working..!! Too many distractions.)
I'll check out the 'blade' part... thanks for a new item to work on.

 

[Ent]

Ah. here it is. Merry's blade:

"But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
.... Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 844). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Thank you @Aldarion !! Additional change made to post above.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

There are several discussions of the Barrow-blades; here's one (with the usual digressions):

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/crafting-of-the-knives-from-the-barrow-downs.23859/#post-527103

They also came up in this thread:

Post in thread 'Who would win between Olorin and Sauron?' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/who-would-win-between-olorin-and-sauron.8854/post-526828

Though it descended into a somewhat tangled argument about what exactly constituted the "magical" aspect.

 

[Olorgando]

Ah. here it is. Merry's blade:

"But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
.... Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 844). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

From Appendix B;

861 Death of Eärendur, and division of Arnor
...
1409 The Witch-king of Angmar invades Arnor (note: by this time no longer a united kingdom for 548 years!)

Another point where Cristopher Tolkien's comment about his father being susceptible to hyperbole seems to ring true; after over 1400 years, NO kingdom of Men was young. In actual history, very few kingdoms survived even a third of that time, and if one shifts to dynasties that number drops to a cold, hard zero.

The place where the Hobbits, rescued by Tom Bombadil, IIRC, got their swords / daggers, was Cardolan, not Arthedain. Second to fall to Angmar (after Rhudaur).
Gimme a break. This pocket-knife (from a Big Folk perspective) is supposed to be more deadly to the W-k than Gandalf's sword Glamdring, sword of Turgon forged in the First Age in Gondolin; to be of use against Morgoth (Turgon's dad Fingolfin certainly did damage against him) or his minions?????

There is that bit about JRRT tying both feet and a hand (or even several fingers of the other hand) of his "good" Valar and Maiar against their doing violence against the "Eruhini" - something that the "baddies" consistently gave a 💩 about, without CONSEQUENCES! - I mean, it would have taken Ossë split-seconds to destroy Ar-Pharazôn's invading fleet.

But what do any of the Nazgûl have to do with the Eruhini as Men as conceptualized by Eru? All should have died thousands of years ago, so what is the problem?????

If Merry could have dealt the W-k such a deadly blow with his fifth rate "pocket-knife", Gandalf in his confrontation with the W-k, wielding Turgon's sword Glamdring from the First Age, would have reduced the W-k to a pile of sliced salami (another fraud in PJ's version where I would gladly do serious physical damage to him - VERY serious!).

 

[Ent]

Merry could have dealt the W-k

And yet this is what the Text says, therefore I guess we need to accept it as written.
Plus, it's a little bit 'aside' from the question the Post asks... so I'm just trying to deal with the question rather than the asides I guess.

 

[Olorgando]

And yet this is what the Text says, therefore I guess we need to accept it as written.

In case it has not become clear from earlier posts, I do not consider everything written (and published) by JRRT as sensible ...

 

[Ent]

(and published) by JRRT as sensible

Oh, not a problem. Not talking about whether it's sensible. Just talking about whether it IS.

 

[Elthir]

If Merry could have dealt the W-k such a deadly blow with his fifth rate "pocket-knife", Gandalf in his confrontation with the W-k, wielding Turgon's sword Glamdring from the First Age, would have reduced the W-k to a pile of sliced salami

Mmmm, salami.

At one point in The Siege of Gondor, the Nazgul fly out of sight and range of arrow, crying with deadly voices. And: "At length even the stouthearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death."

And we see that some warriors were born away from the Nazgul-lord, mastered by the madness of their horses, but Eowyn remained "faithful beyond fear"

But if one can even stand against the Witch-king, you've still got to beat him in battle! And if you just wound him, Aragorn notes: " . . . but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king."

Tolkien generally describes the Ringwraiths [Nomenclature]: " . . . any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated entirely by his will."

And he explains:

"Their [Black Riders] peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness." JRRT Letter 210