Why didn't they bring the Ring to Valinor?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Technically the Grey Havens were closer than Rivendale. Assuming that they could have given the Black Riders the slip, though I think the chances of them being caught are a bit higher, unless aided by a bunch of Elves going West, and taken the Ring across the ocean to where Sauron couldn't go. Granted, mortals aren't supposed to go to Valinor and often get punished if they do (like that one dude who interceded for the Elves and everyone else and got the Valar to listen, but basically got made into a constellation.) Anyway, if they were able to get into Valinor, couldn't Aule, who taught Sauron his craft in the first place, just smash the Ring out of existence with his hammer, without even needing Mt. Doom? I mean, a guy who can make dwarves can certainly unmake the One Ring.

I can see why the "just throw it into the sea" option didn't work (though I am a bit confused on how it didn't end up there when Numenor was sunk, unless Sauron didn't have his Ring with him, though I can't see why he'd have faced off against Numenor without it.) If they did, even if Sauron never found it and some evil creature didn't return it to him, it would basically tether Sauron to Arda like a Horcrux and he'd be able to win the war, sooner or later, even without it simply by getting the best of Gondor. And I'm sure Gandalf knew this.

However, what I'm curious about is what made Gandalf so certain that the Valar would NOT take the Ring or destroy it, even if they could somehow bring it to Valinor. And I think it's as unlikely that Sauron would suspect that they'd take the Ring to Valinor to destroy it, especially given how hard it might be to get there, as he would suspect that they'd take the Ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it, so they'd also have Sauron confused on their motives for a bit, though perhaps heading West with it might be a giveaway to Sauron and they feared he'd try and blockade the path, but I think that, unlike how easy it'd be to block Mt. Doom, he'd have a job getting through Gondor, Elrond, the Boernings, the Rangers, Bree, and the Shire, not to mention Rohan (I think the presence of Sauron's armies coming in person would have stirred Theodoen to action, Wormtongue or not.)

I do, of course, think that once they went to Rivendale, managing to get back through the Shire would be a lot harder than if they'd set out West to begin with, but, on the other hand, even then, with the Ring Wraiths all dehorsed and sent back in shame to Mordor, the coast was a lot clear to get back even then. Actually, now that I think of it, going back would also make more sense from a tactical move. Not only was there few enemies (maybe Bill Ferney and Lotho and maybe, if he got in the way, Saruman) barring the way to the Grey Havens, but also Sauron would, as Gandalf even explains, expect someone to bring the Ring, likely to Gondor, to use against him, and so he'd be sending his forces that way. (I do actually think that he was a bit confused with the Palantir thing and feared Saruman had the Ring and that bought the West a bit more time.) But at any rate, Frodo and Sam actually did run into the army, but thankfully they weren't really paying attention around Minas Morgal to notice the three hobbits lurking around, though it was a very near miss. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the army would still have been lurking around there, had not Aragorn gone and used the Palantir, giving Sauron the false impressed that Aragorn, the heir of Isildur, had the Ring, so he sent his armies to Gondor before he'd planned to.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

The council of Elrond explains it pretty well in my opinion

‘But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,’ said Elrond. ‘And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.’

 

[Olorgando]

The council of Elrond explains it pretty well in my opinion

‘But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,’ said Elrond. ‘And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.’

This is, in my opinion (@Ent , take note 😈 ), the most pathetic cop-out in all of JRRT's published writing. The One Ring """belonged""" to Middle-earth for one reason, and one reason only: because the marshmallow-soft Valar failed to clear Middle-earth of the monsters of Morgoth that none of the Eruhini had a realistic chance, probably not even the ghost of a chance, of opposing. That bit in the Christopher-published Silmarillion in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", on the first page, consistently has me snarling somewhat more aggressively than a cross between a wolverine and a Tasmanian Devil:

"But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence ...

The Valar will be the judges, so what is Eönwë's problem??????????

He's a cop, §$%&#@€, sent to M-e to apprehend criminals, of whom Sauron is second only to Morgoth in KNOWN crimes! I can't believe that JRRT, when he wrote this stuff, was ignorant of the separation of powers between an executive and a judicial branch of government.
Story-external: 'course, Sauron had to stay in M-e, initiate the whole RoP business, otherwise no LoTR. But I continue to see his writing in these two scenes as among the lamest (excuses) he ever perpetrated.

 

[Ent]

This is, in my opinion (@Ent , take note 😈 ),

Your opinion is noted. 😁

 

[d4rk3lf]

Story-external: 'course, Sauron had to stay in M-e, initiate the whole RoP business, otherwise no LoTR. But I continue to see his writing in these two scenes as among the lamest (excuses) he ever perpetrated.

I respectfully disagree.
I think it actually makes sense.
First of all, Valars are no perfect beings.. only Illuvatar is. They have done many mistakes. Their decision to not interfere in Middle Earth and Sauron "things" is actually pretty good call. The inhabitants of M.E. (dwarfs, humans, hobits, elves) are not sheep's, so they need a constant guardian (imagine how the world would look funny, if Valars always show when, even the slightest evil appear in M.E. to "clean it up), it will make everyone look like an imbecile, not worthy of free thought, and ability to fight for freedom.
So yes.. they could receive and destroy the ring, but what would be the point of living of the inhabitants of M.E.? A bunch of sheep's?
It's like having a child, but don't letting him get independence long after it gets it maturity.
Also, do not forget that inhabitants of M.E. almost defeated Morgoth himself, if there were not a betrayal of (some) humans.

 

[Olorgando]

... (imagine how the world would look funny, if Valars always show when, even the slightest evil appear in M.E. to "clean it up), ...

They had appeared to "clean up" Morgoth at the end of the First Age, the greatest evil of all. But to the second greatest evil, Eönwë simply tells him face-to-face to "be a good boy and show up in court for sentencing"? Instead of simply "snapping on the hand-cuffs" and dragging Sauron back to the Halls of Mandos (jail, do to speak) to there await sentencing, Eönwë, "... whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda." (Valaquenta, beginning of the section "Of the Maiar"). The War of Wrath was very cataclysmic and destructive to Middle-earth (but then just look at what Eru did near the end of the Second Age! ), but Eönwë's confrontation with Sauron took place when the dust had just settled. That they no longer directly interfered in Middle-earth after this massive dereliction of duty makes (some) sense. Yes, the Valar are far from perfect (to put it mildly), which is why one of my favorite"hobbies" on JRRT forums has been Valar-bashing. With which I mostly earned my "Grump Badge" ... 😁

 

[Eljorahir]

Maybe this will help? (If you'll pardon my blasphemy😊).
JRRT came to me in a dream and asked me to add just a little bit to "The Council of Elrond" chapter:

Elrond: “And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it.”
Frodo: “But why would they not receive it?”
Gandalf: “Ah Frodo, you ask ‘why’. Questions that begin with ‘why’ oft lead to places that defy explanation. But, I shall try my best: Firstly, say not ‘they would not receive it’, but rather ‘they could not receive it’. As long as the Ring exists, Sauron is divided. He is both within the Ring and within his horrid body at the same time. Since the time of The Downfall of Numenor the land beyond the Sea is no longer a part of our world, for Valinor and Eressea were divided from it, taken into the realm of hidden things. And no one, be he Vala, Ainur, Elf, or Man, may exist in both worlds at once. As long as Sauron of the Body remains here, Sauron of the Ring must remain here as well.”

 

[CheriptheRipper]

Yes, the Valar are far from perfect (to put it mildly), which is why one of my favorite"hobbies" on JRRT forums has been Valar-bashing. With which I mostly earned my "Grump Badge" ... 😁

I think we can agree on that Olorgando, I wouldn't wanna call them worthless but they kinda seem it.
Also don't get the Eru nepotism stuff towards Aule, but Morgoth's supposed to be the bad guy.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Maybe this will help? (If you'll pardon my blasphemy😊).
JRRT came to me in a dream and asked me to add just a little bit to "The Council of Elrond" chapter:

Elrond: “And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it.”
Frodo: “But why would they not receive it?”
Gandalf: “Ah Frodo, you ask ‘why’. Questions that begin with ‘why’ oft lead to places that defy explanation. But, I shall try my best: Firstly, say not ‘they would not receive it’, but rather ‘they could not receive it’. As long as the Ring exists, Sauron is divided. He is both within the Ring and within his horrid body at the same time. Since the time of The Downfall of Numenor the land beyond the Sea is no longer a part of our world, for Valinor and Eressea were divided from it, taken into the realm of hidden things. And no one, be he Vala, Ainur, Elf, or Man, may exist in both worlds at once. As long as Sauron of the Body remains here, Sauron of the Ring must remain here as well.”

That sounds nice, but it contradicts that even mere Elves like Glorfindel who have been in the Undying Lands and are now in Middle Earth are more or less in both worlds at once.

 

[Eljorahir]

That sounds nice, but it contradicts that even mere Elves like Glorfindel who have been in the Undying Lands and are now in Middle Earth are more or less in both worlds at once.

I'm not familiar with that. In what way is Glorfindel in the Undying Lands and Middle-earth at the same time?

 

[Wastrel]

This is, in my opinion (@Ent , take note 😈 ), the most pathetic cop-out in all of JRRT's published writing. The One Ring """belonged""" to Middle-earth for one reason, and one reason only: because the marshmallow-soft [full-stop] LOL

 

[Will Whitfoot]

Using a non-Tolkien mythos as an example: I invoke the original THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL analogy. Klatu comes to Earth to give notice that the rest of the cosmos has taken note of our acquisition of weapons of mass destruction and of our impending ability to carry them beyond our own sorry little rock. He does not offer any particular guidance on HOW to cleanse the Earth of war-mindedness. Simply says it's our problem and deal with it. If we fail to do so, the only alternative is GORT, and he will act to destroy the entire planet if deemed necessary to quarantine the threat.

I suggest the Ainur did possess the option and power to destroy all of Middle Earth in order to eliminate the evil of Sauron... and may have eventually done so if Middle Earth had fallen completely to Sauron's rule. But they did not have the power or the "authority" to tinker with Iluvatar's creation in overt ways beyond their original plan. Once the pieces were placed on the board, the GAME must play out according to the rules. The fact that good DID ultimately triumph over evil is evidence that there was in fact a plan and a power working behind the scenes. I understand this view may demand something in the way of FAITH. faith that good will always ultimately triumph, though in ways and at a time we cannot know.

If I may break character for a moment and address the MEANING of LOTR to me as it applies to the real world: There were tiimes when I felt the world was truly dawning on a new age, the Age of Aquarius was rising, war and poverty would end, and it would all happen within my lifetime. Well... I've lived quite a long time and have not seen those heady hopes come to pass, nor even an inkling of them. While I no longer realistically hope to see the flowering of humankind in peace and harmony within my lifetime, I DO still have faith that it will one day come to pass. It may take a hundred-thousand years, perhaps even a million or more. Another great age of war and misery may well be upon us in the near-term, but eventually humans will find a way to escape from the endless cycle of of war and hatred. And if we do not, and we truly exterminate ourselves from the earth, then another species will arise to ponder the meaning of life, and the Mustelid archaeologists will find evidence of our debacle and use it to avoid our fate... and so I have hope and faith in the ascendance of truth, goodness, and beauty even beyond the potential extinction of humankind.

And so may even the Valar view Middle-earth. In the largest view of the big picture, it simply doesn't matter one way or the other. To the creator it is a work of art, to be appreciated as much for the authenticity of the creation process as for the beauty of the final product.

 

[Radaghast]

Regarding the Eönwë question, this is a flimsy bit of a contrivance on Tolkien's part. However, it does say that Sauron may have been truly repentant:

When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë.

• The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

So, this makes Eönwë look somewhat the naif, but does at least provide some qualification for his trusting Sauron. I do think it would probably be better if Sauron simply escaped and/or evaded Eönwë. Also, Tolkien never actually finalized his own vision of 'The Silmarillion' so there's the possibility that he could have rewritten this bit.

 

[Ent]

a flimsy bit of a contrivance

Could well be. On the other hand, Tolkien may have been dealing with the difference between 'true and false repentance' from his Catholic perspective... a very real thing most don't understand, even those in the faith. This is a classic example of the issue.

When he says "And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear..." this is a real key to his underlying thinking.

 

[Deimos]

... Yes, the Valar are far from perfect (to put it mildly), which is why one of my favorite"hobbies" on JRRT forums has been Valar-bashing. With which I mostly earned my "Grump Badge" ... 😁

And it could not be worn by a more worthy....wearer. 😁

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Looking for "in-universe" explanations is a valid exercise, but there are literary, or in Tolkien's case, we could say specifically mythopoeic ways of looking at them. Northop Frye's list of fictional modes have been cited in several critical works on Tolkien, but for those unfamiliar with it, I'll repeat it here:

1. If superior in kind both to other men and to the environment of other men, the hero is a divine being, and the story about him will be a myth in the common sense of a story about a god. Such stories have an important place in literature, but are as a rule found outside the normal literary categories.

2. If superior in degree to other men and to his environment, the hero is the typical hero of romance, whose actions are marvellous but who is himself identified as a human being. The hero of romance moves in a world in which the ordinary laws of nature are slightly suspended: prodigies of courage and endurance, unnatural to us, are natural to him, and enchanted weapons, talking animals, terrifying ogres and witches, and talismans of miraculous power violate no rule of probability once the postulates of romance have been established. Here we have moved from myth, properly so called, into legend, folk tale, marchen, and their literary affiliates and derivatives.

3. If superior in degree to other men but not to his natural environment, the hero is a leader. He has authority, passions, and powers of expression far greater than ours, but what he does is subject both to social criticism and to the order of nature. This is the hero of the high mimetic mode, of most epic and tragedy, and is primarily the kind of hero that Aristotle had in mind.

4. If superior neither to other men nor to his environment, the hero is one of us: we respond to a sense of his common humanity, and demand from the poet the same canons of probability that we find in our own experience. This gives us the hero of the low mimetic mode, of most comedy and of realistic fiction. "High" and "low" have no connotations of comparative value, but are purely diagrammatic, as they are when they refer to Biblical critics or Anglicans. On this level the difficulty in retaining the word "hero," which has a more limited meaning among the preceding modes, occasionally strikes an author. Thackeray thus feels obliged to call Vanity Fair a novel without a hero.

5. If inferior in power or intelligence to ourselves, so that we have the sense of looking down on a scene of bondage, frustration, or absurdity, the hero belongs to the ironic mode. This is still true when the reader feels that he is or might be in the same situation, as the situation is being judged by the norms of a greater freedom.

Frye points out the tendency of literature in a given culture to move down the modes; we see this occurring in Greek literature, for example, as well as in encyclopedic collections such as the Northern Sagas or the Bible.

In the Mythic mode, the stories are about gods, as in the early parts of the Silmarillion. In the Romantic, the mode of LOTR, the gods have retreated to the sky -- quite literally in the case here -- and interaction between them and human characters is cut off. That's the "real" reason the Ring can't be shipped off to Valinor.

For the obvious "But what about-- " objections, it should be noted that "pure" examples of the different modes are rare; although a given work operates in one of them as a sort of "key", or tonality, there's almost always a mixture of modes; so, for instance, we get Boromir, a High Mimetic character, in a predominantly Romance story. Similarly with the other modes, Gollum being an example of the Ironic mode. In fact, we could fairly easily match the members of the Fellowship with the the different modes.

As I said, most writers use at least some of these modes in combination; Tolkien was unusual in writing stories in all of them, including the Mythic, and connecting them into a vast encyclopedic "history", which can lead us into the kind of difficult in-universe questions such as the one being discussed here, but which also caused him to be called "The cultural equivalent of a people".

 

[Radaghast]

As far as taking the Ring to Valinor, what good would this do? Why assume the Valar (presumably, Aulë) can destroy it if Gandalf says it can only be destroyed in the fire of Mount Doom?

So, assuming the Valar can't destroy it (which is the logical assumption since there is nothing that says otherwise), taking the Ring there would not neutralize Sauron. It's not enough to just keep the Ring from Sauron.

 

[Olorgando]

As far as taking the Ring to Valinor, what good would this do? Why assume the Valar (presumably, Aulë) can destroy it if Gandalf says it can only be destroyed in the fire of Mount Doom?

So, assuming the Valar can't destroy it (which is the logical assumption since there is nothing that says otherwise), taking the Ring there would not neutralize Sauron. It's not enough to just keep the Ring from Sauron.

Sauron was originally a Maia of Aulë (as was Saruman). It should be a pretty safe conclusion that Aulë is vastly more powerful than Sauron, and easily capable of undoing any of the latter's works. I interpret Gandalf's statement about Mount Doom to take as a foregone conclusion what Erestor Arcamen posted in his first reply, quoting from the Council of Elrond: "for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it." And the only place in M-e where it can be dealt with, destroying it, is Mount Doom.

 

[Radaghast]

Sauron was originally a Maia of Aulë (as was Saruman). It should be a pretty safe conclusion that Aulë is vastly more powerful than Sauron, and easily capable of undoing any of the latter's works. I interpret Gandalf's statement about Mount Doom to take as a foregone conclusion what Erestor Arcamen posted in his first reply, quoting from the Council of Elrond: "for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it."

Perhaps though, of course, at the time of publication, even Aulë's name had yet to be revealed to the world let alone who he is (or any of the Valar ftm besides, perhaps, Varda) so readers could not have contemplated that possibility. As far as the reader is able to assume, the Sammath Naur is the only place to unmake the Ring.

And the only place in M-e where it can be dealt with, destroying it, is Mount Doom.

Interestingly, though, there's this bit in the chapter "Mount Doom":

At first [Sam] could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued.

Including the light of a Silmril, which ultimately derives from Valinor. But perhaps it's not a question of 'power level' but more a sort of 'passcode' type of thing.

Of course, I do agree overall that the Valar's behavior is odd, at best. However, I think this is possibly because of the need to create a Second and Third Age. Because The Hobbit was woven into the legendarium, along with its sequel, the Valar had to 'exit stage left' and were left with very little to do (that we know of). They're not even allowed to defend their home when the Númenóreans attempt to invade. But if the Valar are capricious what does that say about Eru Ilúvatar?

 

[Olorgando]

Interestingly, though, there's this bit in the chapter "Mount Doom":

At first [Sam] could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued.

Including the light of a Silmril, which ultimately derives from Valinor. But perhaps it's not a question of 'power level' but more a sort of 'passcode' type of thing.

Objection, your honor! (Channeling a bit of Raymond Burr's "Perry Mason" TV show there. )
The phial of Galadriel was not a Silmaril, far from it. The Silmarils had the power to scorch Morgoth, they'd easily done the same to his lackey Sauron. Again, the phrase "all other powers were here subdued" must be taken together with what is said directly before, "greatest in Middle-earth", which definitely excludes Aman, especially by the Third Age.

But as I'm just re-reading vol. 12 of HoMe, "The Peoples of Middle-earth", I have the impression that the Second Age / Númenor part entered with JRRT's unfinished "The Lost Road" writings (which Christopher T. deal with in vol. 5 of HoMe of the same name). Now my cover-to-cover reading of the HoMe volumes is decades in the past, even the first reading of vol. 12 PoMe more than a quarter century. So the finished versions of the Silmarillion (1930 and 1937?) were First-Age-only tales? Aelfwine and Pengolod of Tol Eressëa still seem to appear in early writings of the Akallabêth, so how lost the tales that Christopher collected in vols. 1 and 2 of HoMe actually were at least in this phase of JRRT's writing is puzzling, to me at least.