Was Boromir's proposed alternative strategy flawed?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I'm reading now where Boromir is trying to seduce the Ring from Frodo. He's stating that maybe wizards or Elves couldn't handle wielding the Ring but somehow Men could. Did he not read of how the Men of Numenor were seduced by Sauron or how Isildur took the Ring and was betrayed by it? He could he think that he himself or even his father Denethor for that matter, was made of stronger stuff than Isildur, the guy who helped defeat Sauron? I get that the Ring was messing with him, but he wasn't even holding it. He couldn't even see it. How was there not a part of him realizing what he was saying was Oliphant crap?

Also, now that I think of it, if the Ring was working on him, why was he so bold in stating his intentions, even eventually saying "I'm going to take it from you by force!"? Why didn't he try and say something like "You know, you going possibly alone to Mordor is sure to end in failure, perhaps if you go to Minas Tirith, we can send men to help you have a better chance of getting in. Even if Aragorn goes with you, you still stand very small chance, and you risk the life of the true king, who currently has no heir. Why don't we go to Minas Tirith first?" and thus hope to ambush Frodo that way.

For someone had a better clarity of thinking trying the Redhorn pass, i.e. to bring wood, something even Gandalf didn't seem to think of, Boromir's whole approach here is illogical.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Why didn't he try and say something like "You know, you going possibly alone to Mordor is sure to end in failure, perhaps if you go to Minas Tirith, we can send men to help you have a better chance of getting in. ...

Isn't that exactly what Boromir said?
Quote:
‘But you will come, at least for a while?’ Boromir persisted. ‘My city is not far now; and it is little further from there to Mordor than from here. We have been long in the wilderness, and you need news of what the Enemy is doing before you make a move. Come with me, Frodo,’ he said. ‘You need rest before your venture, if go you must.’ He laid his hand on the hobbit’s shoulder in friendly fashion;

 

[Will Whitfoot]

Boromir is a man, and men, above all, desire POWER. Faramir was the greater brother of the two. Faramir understood the lure of power and the risk of falling under its spell. Boromir never got that, or not until the very end.

 

[arivista]

He was proud. That's one element of pride, it is blinding, so we don't see how illogical it oftentimes is. For example, when we think we are right in 99 % of things we believe. In anyone else we would take it as incredibly improbable, even just statistically speaking, but about ourselves we feel quite confident about our positions. Sure, maybe theoretically we admit we might be wrong, be we don't really feel it.

 

[Olorgando]

In a way, only Gandalf had the hunch who might the only safe Ring-bearers on a dangerous mission. Not Wizards, as he reported Saruman's treachery at the Council of Elrond - and was sure he himself would not be a safe choice. Nor Elves, though they, very much so the other two bearers of The Three, were wise enough to realize this. Men actually were the worst candidates, as perhaps only Faramir of all men had the wisdom to realize this (which critics and filmmakers - PJ! - just didn't get; well, no surprise, all men in the Boromir / Denethor mold 😈 ).

No, it was Hobbits, in whom the lust for power that the One Ring needed to be able to work on was close to nonexistent. OK, Tom Bombadil was even way beyond Hobbits in that respect, but he had also become even more of a stay-at-home than they were. No good for an adventure far from home.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I'm reading now where Boromir is trying to seduce the Ring from Frodo. He's stating that maybe wizards or Elves couldn't handle wielding the Ring but somehow Men could. Did he not read of how the Men of Numenor were seduced by Sauron or how Isildur took the Ring and was betrayed by it? He could he think that he himself or even his father Denethor for that matter, was made of stronger stuff than Isildur, the guy who helped defeat Sauron? I get that the Ring was messing with him, but he wasn't even holding it. He couldn't even see it. How was there not a part of him realizing what he was saying was Oliphant crap?

Also, now that I think of it, if the Ring was working on him, why was he so bold in stating his intentions, even eventually saying "I'm going to take it from you by force!"? Why didn't he try and say something like "You know, you going possibly alone to Mordor is sure to end in failure, perhaps if you go to Minas Tirith, we can send men to help you have a better chance of getting in. Even if Aragorn goes with you, you still stand very small chance, and you risk the life of the true king, who currently has no heir. Why don't we go to Minas Tirith first?" and thus hope to ambush Frodo that way.

For someone had a better clarity of thinking trying the Redhorn pass, i.e. to bring wood, something even Gandalf didn't seem to think of, Boromir's whole approach here is illogical.

I don't think they viewed the Elves as powerful alies anymore...more like these old creatures they ought to be wary of...I imagine the most trustworthy records men had of Elves drowned with Numenor and there wasn't much relation between them during the 3rd age....it was more a matter of trust than viewing them as lesser beings

 

[Olorgando]

On a very fundamental level, arrogance (and not just Boromir's) is hugely a result of ignorance.
My personal take on arrogance is that it is an alloy like bronze, about 12% tin and 88% copper.
What equates to the 12% tin will probably vary from person to person, but the 88% copper equivalent is definitely arrogance, in my view.

 

[Valandil]

Boromir did not trust Wizards or Elves. He didn't think they were on the up-and-up. He didn't think they had Men's interests at heart.

And really - for all he knew, was it not possible that Isildur had mastered the Ring, and was not mastered by it? Maybe even likely.

 

[Olorgando]

And really - for all he knew, was it not possible that Isildur had mastered the Ring, and was not mastered by it? Maybe even likely.

Though Gondor did not seem to have records of what happened to Isildur in detail, the term "Isildur's Bane" was known. I find that hard to reconcile with any notion of Isildur having "mastered the Ring". Considering all that was said at the Council of Elrond, in such a scenario the baddie who was threatening everyone would then have to have been Isildur himself (kind of a Witch-king squared or more), who had managed to overpower Sauron ... but then had just become Sauron 2.0!

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

While I believe that you are right, that Isildur would not have 'mastered the ring' and no translation of the document would make that seem accurate, people believe what they want to believe. They see what they want to see. It's very possible that Boromir saw the strength in men, he would have been brought up on the stories of Arnor, Numenor, and some of the greatest Men of all time.

As for the original question:

He might then think of Elves as not really helpful, and not good necessarily. He may have thought that Elves were prone to limiting others, lording over Men, and squandering their gift of immortality.

Besides, he was a Man. Even in this day and age, people are partial to the race that they belong to.

 

[Ent]

Ent thinks the better question here, is "How could Boromir NOT be so arrogant..."
Man does not show himself to be very savvy under any circumstances, driven always by lust and pride of every kind.
Tolkien wrote to display the human condition in all its aspects.
Boromir brought his own darkness with him. Thus, he HAD to 'make excuses' of every kind to justify his inner blackness.

Like Sauron was blind to anyone's thoughts of destroying the ring, Boromir was blind to any thoughts other than possessing and using the ring. He simply did not (could not) understand the concepts driving the Council, and especially Frodo.

No doubt Boromir spent a good ling life convincing others to his ways. Certainly his father, a fellow of very much the same birds nest, had produced a clone of himself.

Neither 'started' as evil. Yet both became evil due to their own desires, lusts, choices, and devices.

We must not give Boromir the benefit of an aptitude or ability toward 'rational thinking'. That was well buried already.

Nor must we give much credence to his 'deathbed confession' at the end... but that's a subject of an entirely different nature and a discussion for elsewhere.

 

[Deimos]

Ent thinks the better question here, is "How could Boromir NOT be so arrogant..."
Man does not show himself to be very savvy under any circumstances, driven always by lust and pride of every kind.
Tolkien wrote to display the human condition in all its aspects.
Boromir brought his own darkness with him. Thus, he HAD to 'make excuses' of every kind to justify his inner blackness.

Like Sauron was blind to anyone's thoughts of destroying the ring, Boromir was blind to any thoughts other than possessing and using the ring. He simply did not (could not) understand the concepts driving the Council, and especially Frodo.

No doubt Boromir spent a good ling life convincing others to his ways. Certainly his father, a fellow of very much the same birds nest, had produced a clone of himself.

Neither 'started' as evil. Yet both became evil due to their own desires, lusts, choices, and devices.

We must not give Boromir the benefit of an aptitude or ability toward 'rational thinking'. That was well buried already.

Nor must we give much credence to his 'deathbed confession' at the end... but that's a subject of an entirely different nature and a discussion for elsewhere.

Totally 100% disagree with you on those three points.
But --as you said--- they warrant a discussion at a later time and maybe a different [sub] forum.

 

[Ent]

Neither 'started' as evil. Yet both became evil due to their own desires, lusts, choices, and devices.

@Deimos - Just to be sure for when the time comes.... regarding this point:
You disagree with Tolkien's texts that "nothing is evil in the beginning" then? If it's deeper than a yes/no answer, no need to expand.
Just wanting to 'grasp' (not understand yet) where you stand on this fundamental question. We can dapple with the 'why' in some other venue later as time permits.

Thanks.

 

[Deimos]

@Deimos - Just to be sure for when the time comes.... regarding this point:
You disagree with Tolkien's texts that "nothing is evil in the beginning" then? If it's deeper than a yes/no answer, no need to expand.
Just wanting to 'grasp' (not understand yet) where you stand on this fundamental question. We can dapple with the 'why' in some other venue later as time permits.

Thanks.

Point me and push me to that particular text beeeecaaause ... I want to read the statement in its full context.
Then I will answer you [here] ...as to my agreement (or disagreement) with it.
And then ....we can go from there to wherever you want to go 😁.

 

[Ent]

Point me and push me to that particular text beeeecaaause ... I want to read the statement in its full context.

Agreement. Ent will get it to you 'soon'. (Still running back and forth to hospital where sister is struggling from stroke, so... time is fluid and difficult.)
Will try to extract the relevant points later tonight. (just gotta remember this thread's title in case it gets buried... will jot it down.)

 

[Deimos]

Take your time (sorry to hear about your sister...Strokes is bad, precious, very bad, nasty things).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The quote is from Elrond, at the Council: "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so."

At least IIRC, not looking it up.

 

[Deimos]

The quote is from Elrond, at the Council: "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so."

At least IIRC, not looking it up.

Yes, that is correct (took me a bit to find it).

 

[Deimos]

@Deimos - Just to be sure for when the time comes.... regarding this point:
You disagree with Tolkien's texts that "nothing is evil in the beginning" then? If it's deeper than a yes/no answer, no need to expand.
Just wanting to 'grasp' (not understand yet) where you stand on this fundamental question. We can dapple with the 'why' in some other venue later as time permits.

Thanks.

Ok...I agree with Tolkien when he said (via Elrond) that nothing is evil in the beginning.

 

[d4rk3lf]

The quote is from Elrond, at the Council: "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so."

At least IIRC, not looking it up.

Really?
I could've sworn that it was Gandalf talking to Frodo in the chapter "The Shadow of the past".

Oh well...