Was Fingolfin Truly Capable of Slaying Morgoth?

[Turin_Turambar]

Fingolfin is the best and most skilled and greatest swordsman who has ever been witnessed in not only middle-earth mythology, but also all imaginary and fictional universes, and all created universe, including humans in real-world history. he is even capable of defeating characters such as miyamoto musashi, arthur dayne, eönwe and even manwe in sword fighting. The reason why it is thought like this is that he injured melkor, the strongest being of all fictional universes, 7 times, which is stronger than marvel characters, even more powerful than characters such as Beyonder Thanos and Superman, and permanently crippled melkor's foot. Could he have slain Morgoth with one last effort and blows of the sword, had not Fingolfin, as you all remember, weary in one-on-one combat, and had his foot not stumbled upon one of the holes made by the grond hammer?

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Umm no offense but what kind of question is this?
Melkor or Morgoth was the most powerful being in the whole universe after Eru illuvatar
Even the Valar and Valier had to gang up together to be able to defeat him
And another problem is that Morgoth,even if Fingolfin were be able to slain his physical form,can not be actually killed.

 

[Vorondil]

melkor, the strongest being of all fictional universes

Tulkas the Vala was able to beat Melkor in a wrestling match and bind him in chains.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Tulkas the Vala was able to beat Melkor in a wrestling match and bind him in chains.

I know I'm just saying based on the text

 

[d4rk3lf]

Melkor or Morgoth was the most powerful being in the whole universe after Eru illuvatar

Only in the (very) beginning.
As time passes Morgot spent more and more powers trying to destroy everything Valat's stand for.
By the time he fought with Fingolfin, he was just a tiny fragment of what he has been at the begging.

So the question is not that bad I think.

To answer the Op's question.
Imho, Fingolfin could just make Morgot run, or if he killed him, it would have bring a piece for many years, but eventually Morgot would take form again... we saw that happened with Sauron (even weekend Sauron without the ring), and Morgoth was way more powerful.
So Fingolfin win would be a short term win, in a greater picture Morgoth would defeat them all, because Noldors were basically cursed, because of a kinslay, and without help from Valinor, Morgoth would rule in the end.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Only in the (very) beginning.
As time passes Morgot spent more and more powers trying to destroy everything Valat's stand for.
By the time he fought with Fingolfin, he was just a tiny fragment of what he has been at the begging.

So the question is not that bad I think.

To answer the Op's question.
Imho, Fingolfin could just make Morgot run, or if he killed him, it would have bring a piece for many years, but eventually Morgot would take form again... we saw that happened with Sauron (even weekend Sauron without the ring), and Morgoth was way more powerful.
So Fingolfin win would be a short term win, in a greater picture Morgoth would defeat them all, because Noldors were basically cured, because of a kinslay, and without help from Valinor, Morgoth would rule in the end.

I know of what you speak but didn't he start corrupting beleriand and as you say give more of his power to the land after the battle of sudden flames?
Is there anywhere mentioned that when did he start it?

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Tulkas the Vala was able to beat Melkor in a wrestling match and bind him in chains.

That's right. But if you remember, Melkor kills Manwe in Dagor Dagorath and then manages to defeat Tulkas when he use a combination of weapon and magic power to fight with Tulkas. You should look who defeated last. Because the last thing in everything is considered the final result.

 

[Starbrow]

That's right. But if you remember, Melkor kills Manwe in Dagor Dagorath and then manages to defeat Tulkas when he use a combination of weapon and magic power to fight with Tulkas. You should look who defeated last. Because the last thing in everything is considered the final result.

Is there a source for this information? I'd like to read more of what Tolkien wrote about the end times.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Is there a source for this information? I'd like to read more of what Tolkien wrote about the end times.

Same here, it's the first time I'm seeing this

 

[Vorondil]

Is there a source for this information? I'd like to read more of what Tolkien wrote about the end times.

Me too, I've read about The End Times, but not the ones in Middle Earth.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Is there a source for this information? I'd like to read more of what Tolkien wrote about the end times.

I thought that everyone knew enough about dagor dagorath, that is, the end times as you put it. If you are asking how melkor was able to beat tulkas and manwe, I heard this information in the dagor dagorath narrative of a middle earth channel on youtube.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I thought that everyone knew enough about dagor dagorath, that is, the end times as you put it. If you are asking how melkor was able to beat tulkas and manwe, I heard this information in the dagor dagorath narrative of a middle earth channel on youtube.

Which channel if you don't mind saying?

 

[Elthir]

That's right. But if you remember, Melkor kills Manwe in Dagor Dagorath. . .

But Tolkien didn't state this my friend

. . . and then manages to defeat Tulkas when he use a combination of weapon and magic power to fight with Tulkas.

But Tolkien didn't state this either, my friend, even in the versions of the Dagor Dagorath that are extant. I realize (from earlier conversations about this) that you interpret the description that way,
but it's not the only interpretation in any case; and for myself, I can't agree with it.

I thought that everyone knew enough about dagor dagorath, that is, the end times as you put it.

Plenty of folks might not know because the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of Battles") does not appear in Christopher Tolkien's constructed Silmarillion, published in 1977 -- noting that the Dagor Dagorath was a part of the Second Prophecy of Mandos -- which itself was rejected by Tolkien.

Also . . .

if if if the exact description found in the rejected Second Prophecy was to be retained in any "final" version of Tolkien's Legendarium, the evidence from The History of Middle-Earth points to it being nothing more than a Mannish Myth.

The latest (Tolkien-written) version of a prophecy about Túrin (returning from the dead) has him coming back for the War of Wrath (not any last battle of the future). And as I've said before, it's wholly possible that JRRT intended for an actual Mannish prophecy about Túrin to exist within the Legendarium beside a Mannyth myth concerning him, but not even Christopher Tolkien could
answer that question.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Oh, now we've done it! @Elthir is here! (You know a topic is worth discussing when the cat in the coat shows up!)

 

[Ent]

Another wonderful discussion from which Ent gets to learn.
And he always enjoys it when Sir Furry Four-Foot (@Elthir) sneaks in the back door for another dose of 'What Saith the Scrolls'.

There are a great many threads in here well worth printing out in full and using as basis for study...especially for slow ponderers like Ent who don't do so well "vertically" (screens) as they do "horizontally" (paper...though it must be recyclesd stuff...no new tree-killing splease.)

Flipping pages is much more effective than scrolling screens - espeically when marking and reviewing are desired.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

But Tolkien didn't state this my friend



But Tolkien didn't state this either, my friend, even in the versions of the Dagor Dagorath that are extant. I realize (from earlier conversations about this) that you interpret the description that way,
but it's not the only interpretation in any case; and for myself, I can't agree with it.



Plenty of folks might not know because the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of Battles") does not appear in Christopher Tolkien's constructed Silmarillion, published in 1977 -- noting that the Dagor Dagorath had become a part of the Second Prophecy of Mandos -- which itself was rejected by Tolkien.

Also . . .

if if if the exact description found in the rejected Second Prophecy was to be retained in any "final" version of Tolkien's Legendarium, the evidence from The History of Middle-Earth points to it being nothing more than a Mannish Myth.

The latest (Tolkien-written) version of a prophecy about Túrin (returning from the dead) has him coming back for the War of Wrath (not any last battle of the future). And as I've said before, it's wholly possible that JRRT intended for an actual Mannish prophecy about Túrin to exist within the Legendarium beside a Mannyth myth concerning him, but not even Christopher Tolkien could
answer that question.

If you don't mind asking, how do you know that tolkien didn't say that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath? I got the information that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath from a youtube channel that was made entirely for middle earth and made informational videos about middle earth. that is, a middle earth historian telling dagor dagorath in the video was telling. at the same time, another middle earth scholar who was not in this forum told me that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath he had said. As for tulkas subject, yes melkor defeated dagor dagorath ta tulkas in any way is a speculation both by me and by most middle earth fans. because some middle earth fans and followers in different environments so i.e. other internet platforms people actually assume that melkor defeated tulkas and there is no problem for them to think about it. Because Melkor is literally the most powerful being in all fictional universes. He can defeat Beyonder Thanos Living Tribunal and even all Marvel characters at the same time. Moreover, his strength and might are so great that even creatures in the real universe cannot understand. Greater than space in the real universe and greater than the sum of all galaxies in real universe to the hidden space the hidden darkness, only Melkor was able to go, to find the secret fire of the eru. I don't remember any other vala ever going there. and has the ability to manipulate and change all of reality. How can such a man not be able to defeat the tulkas with all his might? I think melkor was defeated tulkas in dagor dagorath. Even, if Tolkien was alive and said otherwise, i.e. he says tulkas defeated melkor, I would have talked to Tolkien one-on-one and convinced him. For it is an insult to Melkor's traits for a man like Melkor to be defeated by tulkas.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Which channel if you don't mind saying?

I don't want to say so there is no advertisement. If you want to learn, send a private message. But even if you learn, you will have to use translation. Because the channel broadcasts in Turkish. I am also Turk. Although my race has always won wars throughout history, I am not an American and My native language is not english, therefore I damn myself every day. but my best feature is that I love all people without discrimination because of their race and religion. Although the Turkish race is superior, the best and most successful people in the world have always been the Americans. At the same time, they have the largest seas and the most beautiful region in the world. In fact, I think America mainland is even more beautiful than Valinor. I don't know what you're thinking, but maybe the Tolkien elves were inspired by the americans.

 

[Elthir]

If you don't mind asking, how do you know that tolkien didn't say that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath?

I don't mind at all! All I can say so far is this much: Manwe isn't mentioned in the Second Prophecy of Mandos (sections 31 and 32 of the conclusion to the 1937 Silmarillion, HOME V) -- nor is he added in the later emendations [The War of the Jewels, HOME XI]

The Second Prophecy says, for example: Morgoth shall return through the Door of Night and shall destroy the Sun and Moon, but Earendil shall descend upon him (as a white and searing flame) and drive him "from the airs" . . .

. . . then the "Last Battle" shall be gathered on the fields of Valinor: "In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the Halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

The second "half" of the prophecy (section 32) concerns stuff like the Silmarils being recovered, their breaking to rekindle the Two Trees, and the levelling of the mountains of Valinor, so that the light shall go out over all the world. And more!

Anyway, no Manwe.

In the later emendations [HOME XI], still no Manwe, although in the margin of the manuscript, Tolkien wrote: "And Beren Camlost" without direction for its insertion.

Also, I don't see Melkor killing Manwe in any earlier versions of this "prophecy" [which versions are mostly collected for easier viewing in a note to The Problem Of ROS]. There is a text included in The Istari section of Unfinished Tales that mentions "Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns."

But that's not only not part of the Second Prophecy proper, in any case Manwe isn't said to be killed by anyone here. Is there some other text that should be in play?

As for tulkas subject, yes melkor defeated dagor dagorath ta tulkas in any way is a speculation both by me and by most middle earth fans. because some middle earth fans and followers in different environments so i.e. other internet platforms people actually assume that melkor defeated tulkas and there is no problem for them to think about it.

I'm not sure we can say with certainty that "most" Middle-earth fans interpret the description this way, but in any event, the relevant section -- for anyone who hasn't read it yet and wants to interpret it -- is now in this thread [the emended version does not change the relevant wording regarding this particular matter].

My nap invigorated me.

That all said, again if there is some Tolkien-written text that I'm unaware of here, then I should like to see it, or at least have it specifically referenced -- in other words, only a Tolkien-written source please. And if you got this claim from youtube, what is the youtuber's Tolkien written source?

🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I don't mind at all! All I can say so far is this much: Manwe isn't mentioned in the Second Prophecy of Mandos (sections 31 and 32 of the conclusion to the 1937 Silmarillion, HOME V) -- nor is he added in the later emendations [The War of the Jewels, HOME XI]

The Second Prophecy says, for example: Morgoth shall return through the Door of Night and shall destroy the Sun and Moon, but Earendil shall descend upon him (as a white and searing flame) and drive him "from the airs" . . .

. . . then the "Last Battle" shall be gathered on the fields of Valinor: "In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the Halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

The second "half" of the prophecy (section 32) concerns stuff like the Silmarils being recovered, their breaking to rekindle the Two Trees, and the levelling of the mountains of Valinor, so that the light shall go out over all the world. And more!

Anyway, no Manwe.

In the later emendations [HOME XI], still no Manwe, although in the margin of the manuscript, Tolkien wrote: "And Beren Camlost" without direction for its insertion.

Also, I don't see Melkor killing Manwe in any earlier versions of this "prophecy" [which versions are mostly collected for easier viewing in a note to The Problem Of ROS]. There is a text included in The Istari section of Unfinished Tales that mentions "Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns."

But that's not only not part of the Second Prophecy proper, in any case Manwe isn't said to be killed by anyone here. Is there some other text that should be in play?




I'm not sure we can say with certainty that "most" Middle-earth fans interpret the description this way, but in any event, the relevant section -- for anyone who hasn't read it yet and wants to interpret it -- is now in this thread [the emended version does not change the relevant wording regarding this particular matter].

My nap invigorated me.

That all said, again if there is some Tolkien-written text that I'm unaware of here, then I should like to see it, or at least have it specifically referenced -- in other words, only a Tolkien-written source please. And if you got this claim from youtube, what is the youtuber's Tolkien written source?

🐾

Let's do this; I will ask the middle earth historian on the youtube channel i mentioned twitch where it is written that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath. I will share the answer with you.

 

[Elthir]

Okay. I'll give you 48 hours.

After that, I can't promise to not pretend to not care anymore