Could the 🧙Istari wear any of the Three Rings and control 👁️Sauron?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I think it's certain that had the elves kept the Three Rings on when Sauron made the One Ring, they'd have fallen under his control. But I'm a bit curious, if, say, an early Third Age Saruman, Gandalf, and maybe Radaghast or one of the Blue Wizards wore them, could the three of them be strong enough to exercise reverse control over him, using their combined might to dominate Sauron's mind via the connection of the Rings to the Master Ring?

From what I gather, the dwarves proved too hard to control, but didn't have the strength, obviously, to try and dominate Sauron back. The men fell and became the Nazgul. And the Elves took off the Three Rings rather than risk Sauron spotting them and using his One Ring to control them.

So, in that regard, nobody TRIED to control Sauron. I'm a bit surprised actually that Saruman for one, who, even then, may have had sinister motives, wouldn't have at least suggested the idea of three powerful Ishtari use the Three Rings to control Sauron, planning afterward to steal the two rings from the other wizards, take the One Ring from Sauron, after controlling him, and rule with an iron fist like Sauron had, or, worse yet, secretly take the One Ring and ensnare the other two wizards and be even harder to stop than Sauron had been.

 

[Ent]

Ent believes no. The reason for creation of, and the power of, the three rings was entirely different than the one.

They were not for confrontation, conflict or control. Healing, preserving and other things were their domain. Their very underlying purpose was entirely 'other'. Even the three had powers separate from each other... not powers that would necessarily 'combine to be greater'.

That said, we remember the One was intentionally forged specifically to "find them and bind them" in the darkness. The reason they were immediately removed when he put on the One was to prevent their being 'found'. (Although Ent finds a minor conflict here with the text written at certain places, and hasn't resolved his questions about it.)

The original owners and makers, but those who were 'given' one of the three later, were both very smart, and very wise. Had they felt there was an ability to do that, they would no doubt have given it a go right at the beginning, or during events later when he was wearing the ring, or even in the eid. Why would they have continued to let Middle-earth suffer so much under the might of the darkness?

Had there been an ability to meet "force with force, and power with power", Ent believes they would surely have done so, rather than in their combined wisdom sending a hapless hobbit or 4 off to nearly certain destruction.

(Here again, too, we get into the underlying theology of Light vs. Darkness... the one inviting, offering freedom, self-will, never forcing... the other demanding, ruling, binding, destroying. The whole business of the rings is yet another key focal point for Tolkien's working out of good and evil in the world.)

 

[Valandil]

I also think they could not have done so. I'm trying to recall whether there's something to base this on - but I think the other rings were all made in such a way that they could be made subject to a master ring - so that when Sauron made the One Ring, that ring itself would have mastery over all the other rings, and would allow the wearer to gain mastery over the bearers of all the other rings. I think it was something inherent in the making of the other rings, something that Sauron taught or used in their making, and something the Elves were not aware of at the time - or did not know how to prevent against when they made The Three. So I think that an attempt, as you describe, would have just brought those Istari under the control of Sauron.

If indeed Sauron was doing much at the time of their appearance in Middle Earth, or soon after.

But I think your question implies that Sauron would have been somewhat active, and in possession of the One Ring, at the time when the Istari would take up the Three. Right?

 

[Olorgando]

There is the concept that all of Arda was "Morgoth's Ring" (I'm currently re-reading volume 10 of HoMe by the same title), than everything of Arda's substance was to a degree corrupted by Morgoth. Add to that Sauron having instructed the Elven smiths of Eregion for centuries before Celebrimbor began his work on the Three Great Elven Rings - without any direct input by Sauron, yes; but they were made of the Morgoth-corrupted matter of Arda, about which corruption only Sauron may have known clearly. And Valandil's point (I think) that making any Ring of Power would make its wearer vulnerable to Sauron with the Ruling Ring. Except for the Dwarves, but they were created by Sauron's former boss Aulë ...
The Three Great Elven Rings were made with the purpose of preservation. At least for Galadriel and her ring, it seems to me strongly implied that this imparted defensive power - as all three attacks upon Lothlórien from Dol Guldur were repulsed during the climax of the War of the Ring. But only as long as Sauron was not wearing the Ruling Ring.
And last consider with what instructions - basically prohibitions - the Istari were sent to Middle-earth: to veil their native power. My feeling is that this excluded any such action using the Three Great Elven Rings as suggested.

 

[MightyMartian]

"The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained."

Elrond - The Council of Elrond

 

[Valandil]

I think it's certain that had the elves kept the Three Rings on when Sauron made the One Ring, they'd have fallen under his control...

BTW - I want to go back and speak to this point.

I don't think that Sauron's control over the other Rings - at least over the Three - was instantaneous, with him putting on the One Ring. In fact - once he made the One Ring, and put it on, the Elven Ringbearers "were aware of him". I suggest that this awareness was through their rings. I suspect that they then took them off - and kept them off until at least the time of Sauron's fall at the end of the Second Age.

Does anyone think otherwise?

I've even thought that the times when Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf sat around and seemed to communicate telepathically - on the journey home toward the end of ROTK - was due to using a connection brought about by their rings. Similarly... they COULD have possibly been aware of use of the One Ring by others (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam), if they knew what to look for/listen for/feel for.

 

[Ent]

they COULD have possibly been aware of use of the One Ring by others (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam), if they knew what to look for/listen for/feel for.

This takes some thought. As to the first points, I will ponder a little more before I respond.

As to the last, interestingly, I’ve thought about that often. Though they had NO idea Sauron was making the One Ring, the instant he put it on, they were aware of him.
Why then, given that Gollum and Bilbo used the ring regularly, did they not detect it?

Was it because of the evil intent, and power, inherent in Sauron that passed outward from the ring given its intent to ‘draw’ and ‘bind’…. But Gollum and Bilbo had insufficient ‘inherent power’ to push that ‘force of intent’ outward?

Somehow I have come to the opinion it must have to do with the INTENT. Sauron’s intent was control of all. The ring magnified it. Gollum’s (and Deagol’s) intent was purely selfish. Bilbos intent was a bit selfish as well. But neither of them had any ‘outward’ intentions for power and control.

Since the One was made to accomplish Sauron’s will to rule, and the purpose of the 3 was preservation, healing etc., I believe that’s why the use of the ring by those with no such desires and no inherent power went undetected.

Could Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond have ‘detected’ the ring ‘had they known what to look for?’ Speculative. Saruman had not revealed to them his suspicions the ring was being sought.. or that he himself was seeking it too…. So they were completely not on the alert. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[Ivan_M]

As to the last, interestingly, I’ve thought about that often. Though they had NO idea Sauron was making the One Ring, the instant he put it on, they were aware of him.
Why then, given that Gollum and Bilbo used the ring regularly, did they not detect it?

Does just putting on the ring constitute 'using' it? Seems to me like a lot of the effects of the ring are passive or unintended artifacts of it being carried by others than its true master. Even just having it on your person has an effect on those around, is that 'using' the ring?

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum
had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in
grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog.

For what it saw was not a small frightened hobbit trying to hold a steady sword:
it saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, looming against the
wavering light behind; in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which
was a bitter pain, the other was clutched at its breast, but held concealed
some nameless menace of power and doom.

Sauron was only aware of Frodo after he willfully claimed it as his own, but didn't sense Sam putting it on to hide from orcs outside Cirith Ungol. Presumably, the wearers of the 3 would have also sensed Frodo at that same moment.

There's a passage at the start of the very next chapter that makes me wonder if Gandalf was wearing his ring during battle of the Morannon and did actually sense Frodo claiming the One.

As if to his eyes some sudden vision had been given, Gandalf stirred;
and he turned, looking back north where the skies were pale and clear. Then
he lifted up his hands and cried in a loud voice ringing above the din: The
Eagles are coming!

Maybe he just heard/sensed the eagles, but the timing corresponds pretty much perfectly with Frodo claiming the ring as his own because the Nazgul retreat just as the eagles come in

But the Nazgyl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows,
hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower;

 

[Ent]

All very good questions. To what extent toes the 'intent' of or 'purpose' for putting it on have a play in its 'detectability.'

There's a passage at the start of the very next chapter that makes me wonder if Gandalf was wearing his ring during battle of the Morannon and did actually sense Frodo claiming the One.

There's another passage bringing me much interest.

"He (Gandalf) rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. ‘No,’ he said in a soft voice, ‘it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least let us be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring. We must go down to face a peril near despair, yet that deadly peril is removed.’"

Note it isn't Frodo he speaks to, but the passage speaks to the Ring, and he seems to be able to 'sense' its location in some way.

The whole business of the Ring is a very mysterious thing. Perhaps that's why we keep thinking about it, asking questions about it, and never quite arriving at a complete picture of it.

To answer a couple of your points more specifically:

Does just putting on the ring constitute 'using' it?

Yes. It does. It's the 'reason' for putting it on and 'intent' of the use that's the issue.

but didn't sense Sam putting it on to hide from orcs outside Cirith Ungol.

Consistent with the 'reason' for putting it on and "intent" of Smeagol and Bilbo's uses.

But we must remember when Frodo put the ring on at Amon Hen, both Sauron and Gandalf were very aware he had done so - though not at first, when he was escaping Boromir... only when he sat in the Seat of Seeing, the 'ancient chair'.

Note is made 'the Ring was upon him.' Between the Ring and the purpose of the Seat of Seeing, he became exposed.

So again, I think we are in agreement... whether the ring was detectable is connected with purpose and intent.

Smeagol and Bilbo were clueless about its power and what it was. Their purposes and intents were always self-interest and 'innocent' of the reason for its creation.

Frodo didn't know in the beginning either... and even after he did, his purposes for putting it on were 'innocent' of its reason for existence - never for ownership or control of others.

Thus so far I maintain my opinion that they could not have detected the ring during the other uses 'had they known what to look for', in response to the original poster's question. Its power contrary to theirs simply was ot in play.

The conflict of the One vs. the Three, is of dark vs. light. Destruction vs. Preservation and Protection. Control vs. Freedom.

Mindless use of the One to escape detection by Lobelia Sackville-Baggins just doesn't rise to the level of wanting to subjugate the Shire or Bree, or bring destroy to the Old Forest or anything. 😁

 

[MightyMartian]

BTW - I want to go back and speak to this point.

I don't think that Sauron's control over the other Rings - at least over the Three - was instantaneous, with him putting on the One Ring. In fact - once he made the One Ring, and put it on, the Elven Ringbearers "were aware of him". I suggest that this awareness was through their rings. I suspect that they then took them off - and kept them off until at least the time of Sauron's fall at the end of the Second Age.

Perhaps not instantaneous, since if it were, they would have immediately been under Sauron's dominion, but clearly they saw the urgency and took off their rings. I don't think it's specified if the Three were wielded during the wars with Sauron, but it does say in The Tale of Years, of the Third Age:

These were the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the
One Ring was lost; but they attempted nothing new, living in memory of the past.”

Does anyone think otherwise?

I've even thought that the times when Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf sat around and seemed to communicate telepathically - on the journey home toward the end of ROTK - was due to using a connection brought about by their rings. Similarly... they COULD have possibly been aware of use of the One Ring by others (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam), if they knew what to look for/listen for/feel for.

That mind to mind contact is a means of communicating between those of stature (such as the Valar communicate mind to mind in the Ring of Doom in Valinor). The essay Ósanwe-kenta details how mind to mind communication works.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Does just putting on the ring constitute 'using' it? Seems to me like a lot of the effects of the ring are passive or unintended artifacts of it being carried by others than its true master. Even just having it on your person has an effect on those around, is that 'using' the ring?




Sauron was only aware of Frodo after he willfully claimed it as his own, but didn't sense Sam putting it on to hide from orcs outside Cirith Ungol. Presumably, the wearers of the 3 would have also sensed Frodo at that same moment.

There's a passage at the start of the very next chapter that makes me wonder if Gandalf was wearing his ring during battle of the Morannon and did actually sense Frodo claiming the One.


Maybe he just heard/sensed the eagles, but the timing corresponds pretty much perfectly with Frodo claiming the ring as his own because the Nazgul retreat just as the eagles come in

Most of the time yes, I would say they used it at least to be invisible, though I doubt that Smeagol or Bilbo, at least for decades, or, in Smeagol's case, hundreds of years, ever realized that it did more than make one invisible. Sam and Frodo had better knowledge because they were told by Gandalf (well, Frodo was, and Sam eavesdropped.) Frodo was warned against using it all, and only used it once by accident at Bree (I almost think he used it at Bombadil's house too, on purpose.) , once under Nazgul swaying at Weathertop, once under duress at that hill place where Boromir tried take the Ring, and may have used it, without putting it on, to tame Smeagol, and he of course used it when he fell to its control and claimed it. Sam only once put it on, and that was to get to Frodo undetected. Anyway, Tom Bombadil put it on and was able to stay visible and even had the ability to make the Ring itself disappear, so technically putting it on doesn't always count as "using it", even to make oneself invisible.