Who Is The Last Remaining Eldar in M-e?

[Ent]

I'm at work and don't have my tools at hand, sorry.
I've read Galadriel is "the last remaining Eldar in M-e" at the time of LoTR's ending.

I'm not sure this is accurate, as Cirdan and Celeborn remain after she leaves, to aid those elves who will still sail west until the time comes none wanting to go are left. These two are also Eldar, yes?

Galadriel may be considered the 'most powerful of the Eldar remaining'... but I think not the last.
Thoughts?

 

[Elthir]

Thoughts?

I think you're trying to distract me from posting about whether or not Christopher Tolkien actually claimed that the Dagor Dagorath was definitively rejected.

Oh but it's going to happen someday! I'm considering waiting till Christopher Tolkien's birthday.

Or some time before, or after, his birthday.

Anyway, since your Galadriel related distraction worked (this time), from The Fellowship of the Ring: "There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk."

🐾

 

[Ent]

There, though Elrond had departed

But... Elrond is not of the Eldar is he? And certanly his sons would not be.
So... are the 'high-elven folk' and those considered the Eldar the same folk?

I'm still really dense on all this Elven mysticism. (or is that 'family tree business'.)

 

[Ent]

Oh - never mind. I can wait until I can get at my research tools.
My interest (now) is:
- Who 'qualifies' as 'the Eldar'
- Who is the oldest of the Eldar remaining
- Who is the 'most powerful' remaining Eldar
- Who is the last remaining Eldar (which may be unanswerable, if ALL remaining Eldar did not depart with Cirdan/Celeborn when they left sometime in the 4th age, when no one else remaining wanted to come along.)

I'll get it figured out.

 

[Olorgando]

As per the table "The Sundering of the Elves" in the published Silmarillion, all those that set out on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen belong to the Eldar. Those that refused Oromë's summons / invitation are called the Avari, "The Unwilling".
The Teleri are the host of whom not all end up in Aman. The first to split off, east of the Misty Mountains, were called the Nandor. That part of the Nandor that later on did at least reach Beleriand were called the Laiquendi and were the Green-elves of Ossiriand. Those Teleri that remained in Beleriand when their relatives headed off to Aman were then called the Sindar or Grey Elves.
So Sindar and Nandor / Laiquendi are also considered Eldar (JRRT unsurprisingly took a while to reach this stage).
So Cirdan certainly belonged to the Eldar, as did any other of the Sindar that also remained in M-e after Elrond and Galadriel left.

Perhaps there's a confusion between these terms - Eldar vs. Avari - and the terms Calaquendi vs. Moriquendi. The first came to Aman in the days of the Two Trees, the latter did not. Any descendants even of the Noldor who returned to M-e who were born there would be considered Moriquendi and Eldar.

 

[Elthir]

Pffft! Gando and his posthumously published 1977 Silmarillion scenario

So... are the 'high-elven folk' and those considered the Eldar the same folk?

According to [cough] The Lord of the Rings (Appendix F) the "Eldar" are those Elves that crossed the Sea upon the Great Journey, plus the Sindar only.

And "High-elves" has two usages in Middle-earth: it usually references the Exiled Noldor (noting
that High-Elven is Quenya too), but can also include the Sindar. And of possible interest, long after
the 1977 Silmarillion was published, in the List of Names (at least) to The Children of Húrin, Christopher Tolkien gives a brief definition that agrees with his father's published description:

"Eldar: The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand."

Indeedy! The West-elves.

 

[Elthir]

By the way Sir Well-aged Ent, I hope you realize I was just having some friendly fun in my first post.

EA seems to!

sometimes I don't use the wink face because it colours the "delivery" (whether I succeed or not with the attempted [cough] humour.)

 

[Ent]

Perhaps there's a confusion

umnhhh... well.... maybe. (huh?)

I hope you realize I was just having some friendly fun in my first post.

But of course...! No matter the color of fur (or coat) worn, a cat is always playful..!! (unless they're not in the mood. 😁)

 

[Olorgando]

Perhaps there's a confusion

umnhhh... well.... maybe. (huh?)

I'm at work and don't have my tools at hand, sorry.
I've read Galadriel is "the last remaining Eldar in M-e" at the time of LoTR's ending.

I've been re-reading volumes IV, V and X of HoMe. At least I still get confused with JRRT's often-shifting nomenclature even with access to my books (despite skipping the most confusing volumes I and II, the ones officially titled "Book of Lost Tales").
Galadriel was the last surviving member of the royal house of the Noldor, descendants of Finwë. She may not have been the last survivor of the Noldor as a whole, as we do not know the fate of the smiths of Eregion (and other Noldor of that region).
At any rate Cirdan and Celeborn remain after Galadriel leaves, and as Sindar are definitely counted among the Eldar - as is Thranduil. Assuming more Sindar remained in M-e than did Noldor after her departure looks very likely.

 

[Ent]

OK thanks for that part... clear answer to my initial question for sure.
I'll keep digging at 'the rest of the story'.
It almost seems these 4 may be the only 4 (by name) we can be 'certain' about...
Do we think any of the other three may have been 'more powerful' than Galadriel?

(I know, I know... I'm invoking a question here having a more fitting place.)

 

[Elthir]

Hmm.

Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age states the following: "In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth forever. And latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the sea. . ."

And as I noted already, for the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings, JRRT added that some of the High-elven folk remained after the Keepers sailed. According to The Road Goes Ever On, "most" of the Elves in Rivendell were High-Elves, and in the context of the quote (below) I'd say High Elves refers to the Exiled Noldor [here, at least]:

"The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves (of which kind were most of the Elves of Rivendell), marked in high stye and verse by the influence of Quenya, which had been originally their normal tongue."

Okay. But could the "some" High Elves [Fellowship of the Ring Prologue] that remained after the Keepers, be High Elves, as in Sindarin Elves?

I mean, one is published by JRRT, the other is not, and thus OTROPATTA could have been amended. . . or not! Anyway, OTROPATTA would seem to be a sweeping statement that the Noldor of Middle-earth had indeed left before the great Nerwende Artanis Naltariel Galadriel -- although I'm not sure that that washes with every text in the legendarium!

Meaning, as I can't remember every text in the legendarium, is there something that might prohibit this? Anywho.

Notes from The Tale of Years

It's said that after the passing of Galadriel [the Keepers passed West on 29, September, 3021, Shire Reckoning 1421], Celeborn, "in a few years" went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. It also notes that in Greenwood the Silvan Elves remain untroubled, "but in Lorien there lingered sadly only
a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon."

And in The Tale of Areggorn and Eggwen [S. R. 1541] Aragorn says " . . . when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk."

Hmm. And when Arwen removes to Lorien, she dwelt alone until winter. "Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent. And there at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest."

Interpret away!

Or not.

 

[Olorgando]

Cirdan and the Elves of the Grey Havens. 😑

 

[Ent]

Remind me not to ask what seem like simple questions.

 

[Olorgando]

Remind me not to ask what seem like simple questions.

Have you ever come across any of Alcuin's "short replies"? 😁

 

[Elthir]

Cirdan and the Elves of the Grey Havens. 😑

I'll bite: Cirdan and the Elves of the Grey Havens what?

Remind me not to ask what seem like simple questions.

Ah, the beauty of Tolkien!

 

[Olorgando]

Cirdan and the Elves of the Grey Havens. 😑

I'll bite: Cirdan and the Elves of the Grey Havens what?

Interpreting according to the thread titles, last Eldar in M-e. 🤨

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Galadriel was the last surviving member of the royal house of the Noldor, descendants of Finwë.

"The sons of Earendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants."
LotR, App A

"Galad occurs also in the epesse of Ereinion (‘scion of kings') by which he was chiefly remembered in legend, Gil-galad ‘star of radiance’: he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of Finwe except Elrond the Half-elven."
PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor

 

[Tar-Elenion]

- Who is the oldest of the Eldar remaining

At the end of the Third Age, the eldest named Elda is Cirdan.
Celeborn is older than Galadriel (on two counts, explicitly in one variant...:
"Celeborn was older than Galadriel..." (NoMe, Elvish Ages and Numenorean)
...and implicitly, the man being younger seems to be considered problematic:
"When Maeglin came to Gondolin c. 400 he was thus 20 + 80/100 years old. It was this disparity of age (and experience) that made him distasteful to Idril." (NoMe, Difficulties in Chronology)
"(He [Maeglin] was less than 22 and younger than Idril: among her reasons for not accepting him.)" (NoMe, Aging of the Elves)

Tolkien even goes through a process of making both Tuor and Aragorn 'older', or at least 'equivalent' in age, relatively speaking, than Idril and Arwen respectively e.g.:
"Tuor reached Gondolin in Bel. 495, he (born in 472) was age 23; but when he wedded Idril in Bel. 502 he was 30. Idril should be also about 30 in Bel. 500." (NoMe, Ageing)
and:
"If Idril was 20 at Exile she will be 25½ in Bel. 502." (op.cit.)
while:
"In 3019 at their wedding she [Arwen] was nearly 37 [life-years] (but Aragorn 43)." (op.cit.)
and:
"In 3019, when they were married, she would have aged very little and would be nearly Elvish 43 (24 + (3,019-313)/144) = mortal equivalent 32–3. But Aragorn would have lived 88 years and 4 months. His “age” would however be about “45”." (op.cit)
See texts for full discourse and maths etc.

This may seem odd considering that Edith was several years older than JRRT, though note that Luthien, in any event, both literally and relatively, was substantially older than Beren. Thus, an exception there (and with Melian and Thingol).)

In the event, returning to Galadriel, she was also relatively 'young' at the exile, so it is not impossible that many of the "Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas" (LotR, Many Meetings) that dwelt in Rivendell, could have been older than Galadriel (so could other Eldar).

 

[Elthir]

Interpreting according to the thread titles, last Eldar in M-e. 🤨

Oh. Gotcha! I thought you might have been reacting to something I said. . .

Ando interrupting here: not everything's about you Elthir. In fact, most things aren't! And don't give me that toothy yawn! Are you even listening?

zzzzz

For myself (Elthir again, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain), I think Círdan sailed with Gandalf and Company. At least I used to think that!

We shall see if I still do. Gotta check a book!

 

[Ent]

I think Círdan sailed with Gandalf and Company.

Eagerly awaiting your check on this one...with the usual references. I have not read it so and will spot check my own understanding again as well.