How would things have turned out if Dain had taken 👁️Sauron's bribe?

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

This thought came to me recently during my current re-read of the Trilogy. It is mentioned by Gloin to Frodo during their time at the Hall of Fire in Rivendell that a messenger of Sauron came to Dain and the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and attempted to barter with him for knowledge of Bilbo and the Shire, as well as to guarantee his allegiance to Mordor in the coming battles.

I wonder, how would things have turned out for the Free Peoples if Dain and the rest of Durin's folk had taken the bribe and sworn allegiance to Mordor. Sauron's messenger had originally stated that Sauron would return to Dain one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves that he had in his possession and would provide bounty to them once the coming battles had ended. If Dain had taken the bribe and given Sauron information regarding Bilbo and the Shire, it seems clear to me that at the very least Sauron would have known the location of the One Ring roughly two years sooner than he did by sending the Nazgul far and wide to search for Shire and Baggins. I would think that this alone would have moved things strongly in the favor of Sauron's coming out on top during the War, but having a lot of dwarves on your side (especially those that had a lot of knowledge of the doings of Wilderland and Eriador) would prove very useful.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

It really depends on when.if he accepted the first time, as you said things would have ended without even being started,the elven ring bearers(Elrond and Galadriel) would have sailed probably and without the might of the Noldor of Lindon and elves of Lothlorien and Thranduil's realm being besieged by dol guldur from south and the dwarves from north and the easterlings,there would be nothing left of the elves.
Mordor would have destroyed Gondor and saruman would have ruined Rohan

 

[Olorgando]

The Dwarves of Durin's folk ever becoming allies of Sauron strikes me as one of the least likely "what ifs" I've ever heard.
The Dwarves fought the most merciless war in their history, from 2793-99 Third Age, to avenge the murder of King Thrór by Moria Orcs.
The climax was the Battle of Azanulbizar 2799 TA before the eastern gate of Moria - at which Dáin personally hacked down and killed Azog (pace PJ's pitiful Baloney Slices in the films). Then Dáin led the Dwarf forces from the Iron Hills to Erebor - and was involved in the Battle of Five Armies, again against Orcs (though here, in the book, it was Beorn who squashed Bolg, Azog's son like a fly).
Durin's folk had been driven from Moria by a Balrog. They had been driven from Erebor by Smaug. They hold a serious grudge against anything associated with any Dark Lord of Middle-earth. And when Dwarves hold a serious grudge (I exaggerate slightly), Fëanor looks like Neville Chamberlain by comparison.
I can't help it, it sounds to me almost like the question "What if Luke Skywalker had joined his daddy on the Dark Side of The Force in the original 1977 film?"

My thoughts.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

Oh @Olorgando I am not proposing that this is even close to bring a likely possibility, but these kinds of what ifs are nonetheless fun to ponder.

I can only speak for myself though.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Oh @Olorgando I am not proposing that this is even close to bring a likely possibility, but these kinds of what ifs are nonetheless fun to ponder.

I can only speak for myself though.

I agree!

 

[Olorgando]

Oh @Olorgando I am not proposing that this is even close to bring a likely possibility, but these kinds of what ifs are nonetheless fun to ponder.
I can only speak for myself though.

I agree!

What you enjoy is your own decision - and only your own, nobody else's.
But you may have noticed (it doesn't matter a bit if you haven't) that I do not participate in RPG's; or in poetry, or in other writing projects threads like the one (Old) Ent started. My imagination just doesn't work that way.

 

[Ent]

What you enjoy is your own decision - and only your own, nobody else's.

Oooh, I think this is a little bit too terse and pointed...!!
Seems the poster is open to thoughts.

In my thread "Verse and Rhyme From the Old Ent", about 3/4 of the way through, I put my little "What If" ditty, which speaks similarly to your viewpoint, sir Gando. Yet I don't mind others speculating at all.

As for that (Old) Ent's thought on the OP, I can say I think things would have "come out differently". (I know, I know.. I'm very simplistic and slow minded.)

That said, somewhere I"m sure I've read the Dwarves were always the most resistant to Sauron and his deceits in every way... so I have difficulty 'imagining' the switch myself.

But let me ponder it a bit and see if anything falls out. Certainly it would be a very different outcome in several ways in several places... but unless Tolkien and his purpose for the book changed altogether, the end result would ultimately be the same I think. (There it is again, that inability to escape what the writer intended, rather than think in an entirely new realm of possibility. When I try to spin up new realms for Tolkien's work, I kinda feel like I'm PJ or Amazon. I can create prequels and sequels, offshoots and entirely new creations from it all... but actually changing the work itself is much harder for me.)

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

All fair points friends.

The probability of Dain acquiescing to Sauron is, I thoroughly admit, near being an impossibility. However, to say that it actually is an impossibility seems to remove any notion of flaw or fallacy in the mind of a character if you allow yourself to treat that character as a real person that can make mistakes and be subject to destructive personality tendencies. Let's not forget that Thorin was quite willing to literally kill Bilbo (or certainly wanted to anyways) after learning that he had given Bard the Arkenstone as leverage for their barter. This is definitely not an equivalency to my original prompt, but just a way of showing that any individual, no matter how noble, can be twisted by desire. The prospect of regaining one of the Seven could at least have awakened desire in some distant, remote corner of Dain's mind, even if he didn't intend to actually submit to Mordor after regaining it.

I suppose when I ponder things in this way, I am envisioning Middle-Earth as a living, breathing world, rather than as a literary universe. In such conditions, I find it fun to imagine endless possibilities of varied absurdity. Rather than seeing such variations on Tolkien's intended paths as being akin to the aforementioned adaptations, I look at it as an exercise in trying to play with and mold the unique motivations and essences of the characters as fallible, flawed individuals (as we all are). And again @Olorgando, I am not stating that this is anywhere in the realm of probability, but still it cannot be ruled out of being within the realm of possibility (to quote the awful, but campily-enjoyable Mario Bros movie from 1990, "Nothing is impossible, just very, very unlikely").

But that is simply how my mind works, and I am not supposing that anyone else has such viewpoints or is interested in pondering things in this way. That is indeed why I posed the question; I had a passing thought that I figured would be enjoyable to entertain the outcomes of. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Ent]

Ah, we can just ignore the "Curmudgeon behind the Curtain" on this one. A lot of these "what if" kinds of things are posted for consideration and discussion, and a lot of folks do have fun with them. His first response was fine, a good introduction in how he perceives the 'what if's', and how he reacts to them.

Pondering this particular one, there are just endless possibilities I can see.

Assuming Dain is ensnared by a ring and drives his people to follow his lead - (is this possible given their own distaste for Sauron? will Dain have enough power conferred by the ring to force them against their own individual wills?) - then yes, Sauron suddenly has a much larger and very capable additionaql force... though Dain's people may not encompass "all" the dwarves, though they're just about the only ones we know about.

Yet Sauron already had a completely overwhelming force, only a portion of which he had released. So...

Once Sauron sends out the Nine, would Gandalf have been set in motion as well, as he was moved a couple years later? Or would Gandalf also have immediately been on the trail, getting to Frodo, checking things out, and setting things in motion.

Would the Dwarves, fully under sway of Sauron, have aided in any way out-thinking the Council, and somehow tripped to the reality they might actually consider destroying the ring? (I think, probably highly doubtful.) Would there even be a Gimli among the Nine Walkers?

Would additional 'force of arms' have aided Sauron at all, in preventing Frodo and whatever company from reaching Mount Doom? Or would it have insured such an overwhelming field victory nothing else mattered anyway?

The additional Dwarves were not INSIDE Mordor, so if Gandalf and Elrond got the Council and the Plan moving timely too, would the outcome be the same?
What in the nature of Dain being a Sauronite, would insure Gandalf and Elrond did not set things in motion earlier as well?

So many scenarios could be written... Ent's mind boggles. Each tree of thought branches into multiple other trees of thought, with corresponding possibilities,

Bottom line becomes: how do we want the story to END, and regardless of all the branches with their multiple possibilities, how do we get there?

As has been said, "anything is possible."
I like it. (and need some aspirin now.)

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

Very interesting lines of thought @Old Ent! It's funny, when I was pondering this it wasn't really Dain's additional strength in arms that I had thought of (or even him having a strict allegiance to Sauron). Surely he would need to be in fiefdom to Sauron by providing him with information of Shire and Baggins, but I envisioned him turning again to his own devices once he had the Ring in his possession.

My thoughts on how his actions would change the trajectory of the story was more in the information he would be able to provide Sauron with. Especially considering Bilbo had made a recent journey to Dale and the Lonely Mountain before settling down in Rivendell, Dain would have much information he could provide Sauron with.

If Dain provided information such as he could, but did not openly go to war on Sauron's behalf, the Council would not necessarily know of the dwarves' betrayal and thus not know to adjust their planning accordingly. I could imagine the Nine entering the Shire well before Frodo was ever told of the Ring's history in the chapter Shadow of the Past or before he laid plans to move to Crickhollow and thus catch him unawares.

Spooky thoughts to be sure! Then again Aragorn and the Dunadan were already patrolling the borders of the Shire for some time after Bilbo's "joke" and disappearance. There could have been an epic, yet perhaps totally covert battle between the Rangers and the Nine outside the borders of the Shire!

 

[Ent]

I envisioned him turning again to his own devices once he had the Ring in his possession

I’m not sure this would entirely be possible. But it’s true I do not know why the Nine are ensnared to Sauron as tightly as they are… though if I’m not mistaken, once he gave them the rings, he took the rings back, and so holds power over the nine. The same could well happen to Dain, but maybe not until his life had become prolonged to the point he became a wraith himself..

Interesting.

As to the rest of what you share above, it too is entirely possible.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Since dwarfs are so proud and stubborn, if the Sauron messenger would tell them: "please, go with the free folks, we don't need cowards in our lines", maybe they would join Sauron.
Joke aside, dwarfs value friendship a lot, and in no way they would agree to sell Bilbo out.

Durin's folk had been driven from Moria by a Balrog.

What if Sauron promised them revenge against Balrog?

 

[Ent]

Yes, that’s the point with Sauron and his cunning…. He was great at finding out what people wanted most and enticing them with it. But for Dwarves, their greatest desire is gold and Mithril…. Revenge against a Balrog probably wouldn’t do it.

Sauron would need to discover Dani’s weakest spot.. as the Arkenstone was for Thorin. Had Sauron enticed Thorin with that, who knows what might have happened for example.

Anyway, I’ll leave this all to the far more creative among us at this point… will focus what little pondering power I have on my own work now.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

Oooh @d4rk3lf that is a fun point. I would have to reread the chapter, but I feel I remember one of Sauron's offers being that they would be given Moria to have as their stronghold once again. That fits with your thought well, but I may be making that up haha.

And your low opinion of your own creativity aside, I have enjoyed your contributions and musings @Old Ent

 

[Olorgando]

The same could well happen to Dain, but maybe not until his life had become prolonged to the point he became a wraith himself..

1977 published Silmarillion, section "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", page 345 in my 1999 paperback edition:

"The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows."

So wraithing can be eliminated as a possibility.

HoMe vol. 12 "The Peoples of Middle-earth", page 280 in the 1996 Houghton Mifflin hardcover:

{The Dwarves} were too tough, being made of a purpose to resist such onslaughts of evil will and power, and though they could be slain or broken they could not be made into shadows or slaves of any other will; and for like reason their lives were little affected, to live either longer or shorter because of the Ring."

So unnatural prolongation of life as happened with humans and Hobbits is also eliminated.

Jes' quotin' ... 🤓

 

[Ent]

Jes' quotin' ...

Oh cool, so those can be eliminated from this particular consideration of "what might have happened."
Narrows the field a bit.

In the end, I wonder what the 7 rings for the Dwarf Lords actually dif for them then... and what advantage the One Ring would have had by 'binding them' along with the others.

The dwarves themselves may not have been made into slaves of any other will... I wonder if that includes 'while wearing one of the 7...' ?

Also it brings up again the question, even if Dain had been able to be coerced into joining Sauron for some reason... (though apparently it would have had to be a 'willing coercion')... would the others have followed? Just because he was their 'king' ?

Or would they have rejected his rule then.

It's one thing for one person to drool over the Arkenstone (Thorin)... but quite another for all the dwarves to follow a bad decision to serve the very darkness they disliked.

Must ponder the possibilities here.

it could well be IF Dain had taken Sauron's bribe, (which included if I understand correctly, "the dwarves" aiding Sauron in the coming battles), they would have ousted him.

Nonetheless, Sauron would gain the information he wanted from Dain... but just be sans the (unnecessary) support of the Dwarves in the battles.

This limits the scope ofpossibilities a bit... which is good.

We're not dealing with fanfic here, but an alternative happenstance within the existing M-e framework.

(need more aspirin.)

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

Very true on both accounts.

I have also always wondered exactly what benefits the Seven imbued upon their wearers (aside from inflaming their greed and anger). In the case of the Nine, there were obvious "positive" benefits imbued upon the Kings of Men that received them, if indeed you can call lengthened lifespan and the power of invisibility positive. However, there is really no mention of what exactly the Seven did for the wearers that could be considered a positive outcome.

I have heard in hearsay that they helped the different clans that held them to immensely increase their wealth and hordes of treasure, but there is no clear mechanism for having done so. I would assume that the wearers were better able to use their willpower to influence the clans they ruled, but that is also conjecture.

 

[Ent]

@Squint-eyed Southerner was our original curator of the Great Halls of Speculation here at TTF... but he passed the job on to me.

The halls were lined with shelves floor to ceiling, carefully marked and catalogued. Every now and again, one of the many subjects in the Great Halls would be checked out, re-run from beginning to end, argued, debated, and ultimately (normally) be returned for replacement on the shelf, the speculations unresolved.

But the Halls burned down... which was fine as they'd been outgrown anyway.
Nonetheless, none of the subjects conatined in the Halls has been lost... and somehow they continue to show up again for another rehash.

New halls were begun, but as the speculations continued to grow, it was realized no Halls would ever be sufficient, so the construction was discontinued.

This is the great thing about Tolkien... there will never be Halls big enough to contain all the 'unresolved and unresolvable' issues.

 

[Olorgando]

1977 published Silmarillion, section "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", now page 346 in my 1999 paperback edition:

"It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring, but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered."

So hearsay is the correct term to apply to lore about The Seven. And yes, the mechanism for having collected these hoards remains unclear - but the one effect The Seven apparently did have on their bearers was to heighten their already existing greed. Still works today, without Dwarves or Rings of Power. A (short-term) amassing of immense wealth would probably be considered a positive outcome by Dwarves.

But ultimately, if in a roundabout way, The Seven also had a positive outcome from Sauron's point of view, about as follows:
- All seven Dwarf-kings receives RoP
- Dwarf-kings' greed grows
- Dwarf-kings' folk amass great hoards
- Dragons plunder all seven hoards, killing a lot of Dwarves in the process.

Now this hypothetical scenario - was it ever an actual plan of Sauron's that worked as he expected or hoped? - presents some problems with Sauron's attempted bribe of Dáin Ironfoot:

- The hoard of Erebor was intact, so what more to be greedy about?
- The Dragon bit - the Dwarves had been able to reoccupy Erebor precisely by the destruction of Smaug - perhaps the last Dragon?

 

[Ent]

perhaps the last Dragon?

He is stated to be 'the last of the Great dragons...'... whether the last of them all is... well... speculative.