Would Smeagol's cooperation have changed the outcome at Mt. Doom?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Let's assume for a moment that Smeagol stays nice enough that he decided not to let the Hobbits be spider food and instead plans to help them get around Shelob. Could he do it or would she have caught and eaten all three, unless Sam fought her again? Also, in the actual timeline, with Sam getting the Ring and going to the tower to rescue Frodo, they ended up getting orc armor, which helped them go across Mordor without notice (at least for a good while, and after getting away from that pinch, they were able to get to the top of Mt. Doom itself before Frodo finally caved and tried to claim the Ring, finally alerting Sauron to them being there.)

While Smeagol/Gollum himself was able to get across Mordor uncaptured without any disguise, was it possible that all three of them could have, or would they have been more easily noticed and captured?

 

[Ent]

One could write a different story any way one chose.

Certainly they could.
Certainly could not.
Certainly maybe, but then maybe not.

It is as it is.
It was as it was.
It can be different, so give it a buzz.

 

[d4rk3lf]

I think he would survived if he chooses to help them to the very end.
But I am not sure if he would be able to survive (out of old age), before they went to Valinor (they would take him there, for sure).
But even if he survived trip to Valinor, I doubt he would live there for a long time, because the damage Ring brought to him was far too devastating.

But even in this scenario with his betrayal, I think that in Illuvatar's eyes, most of the Gollum sins was forgiven, because he is a greatest victim of the Ring's power.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

A very interesting question indeed (I like pondering what-if scenarios as well). Certainly they would likely have still had to deal with the Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol to some degree, considering that it was a watch-post to alert Mordor to any unwanted invasions no matter how unlikely. Frodo was "caught" by the two intersecting bands of Orcs (one from Lugburz and the other from the Tower) only because Sam tarried so long due to grief, so that situation would definitely have been different.

However, as you said, Frodo's capture and Sam's rescue did actually aid them somewhat in their being clad in Orc armor and blending in to the marching bands of Orcs in the Plains of Gorgoroth. It may have been well for them to go unnoticed, so that the Mouth of Sauron didn't have the chance to use Frodo's mithril coat as an intimidation tactic against the Lords of the West, but I doubt that would have changed the overall outcome much. Smeagol likely did not have a chance to explore Mordor to any great extent during his previous capture/release, so he may not have had much to offer in the form of guidance once they escaped Shelob's Lair, other than to head in the general direction of Mt. Doom.

Also, Smeagol would have quite possibly still vied for the Ring with Frodo at the very Cracks of Doom, due to the fact that even Frodo could not withstand its influence so close to its place of making. However, Smeagol would have not been able to ambush Frodo in the same way, and perhaps they would have fought a long battle for the Ring. In this scenario, Frodo could have fallen into the Fire as well, who knows.

 

[Radaghast]

Let's assume for a moment that Smeagol stays nice enough that he decided not to let the Hobbits be spider food and instead plans to help them get around Shelob. Could he do it or would she have caught and eaten all three, unless Sam fought her again? Also, in the actual timeline, with Sam getting the Ring and going to the tower to rescue Frodo, they ended up getting orc armor, which helped them go across Mordor without notice (at least for a good while, and after getting away from that pinch, they were able to get to the top of Mt. Doom itself before Frodo finally caved and tried to claim the Ring, finally alerting Sauron to them being there.)

While Smeagol/Gollum himself was able to get across Mordor uncaptured without any disguise, was it possible that all three of them could have, or would they have been more easily noticed and captured?

The simple answer is yes, they would have, simply because Tolkien would have written it that way if he wanted the hobbits to bypass Cirith Ungol. If Sméagol was truly repentant and wanted to help Frodo, he could have snuck around Shelob somehow. And maybe he or one of the hobbits figured out orc armor was a good idea, so Sméagol could have snuck up on some orcs, killed them, and taken their armor. Etc., etc., etc.

It's fiction, so it's mutable.

 

[Olorgando]

The simple answer is yes, they would have, simply because Tolkien would have written it that way if he wanted the hobbits to bypass Cirith Ungol.

Get with it. One Ring destroyed in Mount Doom is a non-negotiable part of LotR-RotK. Anything deviating from this is not fanfic, it's revisionism.
Oh, you don't like that part? Then why are you wasting your time on TTF?

 

[Radaghast]

Get with it. One Ring destroyed in Mount Doom is a non-negotiable part of LotR-RotK. Anything deviating from this is not fanfic, it's revisionism.
Oh, you don't like that part? Then why are you wasting your time on TTF?

I don't understand.

 

[Olorgando]

I don't understand.

I wasn't contradicting your post (should have made that clear), I was restating it with a curmudgeon snarl.
I don't mind "what ifs" that suggest a possible alternative scenario for getting from A to B, but realizing that both A and B are non-negotiable.
But some of the "what ifs" seem to go in the direction of "why didn't JRRT write like ..."

C.S. Lewis
J.K. Rowling
George R.R. Martin
Ursula Le Guin
Terry Brooks
Michael Moorcock
Terry Pratchett
Andrzej Sapkowski
Stephen Donaldson
etc.

For a simple reason: JRRT was writing long before any of them. While four of C.S. Lewis's seven "Narnia" books were published before LotR (and Lewis had finished writing all of them before LotR's publication), Lewis had been listening to JRRT read parts of LotR long before publication of his first "Narnia" book.
And all other post WW II fantasy authors (certainly post-1955) were influenced by JRRT- even when, as Tom Shippey in his 2000 "Author of the Century" quotes Donaldson, the latter tried to stay as far away from JRRT's style of writing as he felt possible. JRRT was still the reference point.

I simply have no patience for such "what ifs". Surely there are Internet sites dedicated to many, perhaps all of the writers I mentioned above (and plenty that I didn't mention). But questions that seem to me to imply "why didn't JRRT write a (completely) different book" simply turn me into a cross of these two critters:

 

[Radaghast]

Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I'm only too familiar with the "what if" questions. Tolkien is not Marvel or DC with their alternate realities. And I dread the day when The Lord of the Rings goes into the public domain and such comic book realities might very well be possible. I already hate the fact of the existence of the video games. I don't even like the board game(s).

 

[Aldarion]

Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I'm only too familiar with the "what if" questions. Tolkien is not Marvel or DC with their alternate realities. And I dread the day when The Lord of the Rings goes into the public domain and such comic book realities might very well be possible. I already hate the fact of the existence of the video games. I don't even like the board game(s).

You don't even need to wait for LotR going into public domain - just look what they did with the Hobbit movies and the Rings of Power. Fanfiction through and through.

 

[Deimos]

I wasn't contradicting your post (should have made that clear), I was restating it with a curmudgeon snarl.
I don't mind "what ifs" that suggest a possible alternative scenario for getting from A to B, but realizing that both A and B are non-negotiable.

....
I simply have no patience for such "what ifs"....

Thank you.

I sit here reading these "alternate scenarios" or "what would have happened if" and just shake my head.
I saw one on you tube that was actually a parody of the situation, turned up maybe 10 years after the ROTK movie came out.
Two guys (maybe in their 20s) are "seriously" discussing how Peter Jackson should have used about a dozen "Ninja Bears with plasma cannons to invade Morder" and then Frodo and Sam could easily get to Mount Doom. They nearly hyperventilated over how cool that would be.

So let's take care of all "what if" scenarios in one sweep: What if JRRT had never written anything?
There. Problem solved, now and forevermore.
No more pointless dead-end speculation.

 

[Radaghast]

Two guys (maybe in their 20s) are "seriously" discussing how Peter Jackson should have used about a dozen "Ninja Bears with plasma cannons to invade Morder" and then Frodo and Sam could easily get to Mount Doom. They nearly hyperventilated over how cool that would be.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Ninja Bears:
- Surrender Sauron, or we will make your Barad Dur a pile of rubble with our mighty plasma cannons.
Sauron:
- Of course my friends. Please consider yourself invited to a tea, where we will consider the terms of my surrender. I even got you a very nice presents. A 2 beautiful rings.
Epilogue:
Minas Tirith, Lothlorien, Rivendell turned into rubble by plasma cannons.
(they still couldn't harm Ortanc , though, but Sauron lure Saruman out due to his weed/nicotine crisis )

 

[Olorgando]

I saw one on you tube that was actually a parody of the situation, turned up maybe 10 years after the ROTK movie came out.
Two guys (maybe in their 20s) are "seriously" discussing how Peter Jackson should have used about a dozen "Ninja Bears with plasma cannons to invade Morder" and then Frodo and Sam could easily get to Mount Doom. They nearly hyperventilated over how cool that would be.

Hey, I can top that! 😁
The ultimate "Eagle question":

"Why didn't they just beam Frodo and Sam to the Cracks of Doom?" 🤓🤪

 

[Deimos]

Hey, I can top that! 😁
The ultimate "Eagle question":

"Why didn't they just beam Frodo and Sam to the Cracks of Doom?" 🤓🤪

Oh, please....don't get me started.... please....don't....🙄

 

[Olorgando]

Oh, please....don't get me started.... please....don't....🙄

Spock would fit in just fine with the elves ...

 

[Radaghast]

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Oh, please....don't get me started.... please....don't....🙄

Too late.

 

[Valandil]

I simply have no patience for such "what ifs". Surely there are Internet sites dedicated to many, perhaps all of the writers I mentioned above (and plenty that I didn't mention). But questions that seem to me to imply "why didn't JRRT write a (completely) different book" simply turn me into a cross of these two critters:


View attachment 23542View attachment 23543

Hmmm... how many hit points would you have? And how many experience points would you be worth?

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

You don't even need to wait for LotR going into public domain - just look what they did with the Hobbit movies and the Rings of Power. Fanfiction through and through.

The Hobbit Part 1 really didn't deviate that much from the book, other than Azog's addition. It was Part 2 and 3 that went really out there. (Though, admittedly, I liked the fight with Smaug at the end of Part 2. The idea that the dwarves had NO plan to whack the dragon in the books has always bothered me. What exactly were they hoping burglar Baggins would do, steal all the treasure one at a time? Even he admitted in the books that even without a dragon, doing so would take about a century.) If you mean the bouncing barrels on land and Kili or Fili and Tauriel, yes I really thought that was over the top, as was Legolas climbing up falling rocks to fight one of the goblin leaders (though Legolas being there is likely enough to have been canon, given that he was from Mirkwood and almost certainly was present at the Battle of Five Armies, though Thandril never really had a falling out with him in the books nor was it ever hinted at even.)

As for Rings of Power, that was so bad that it made the entire Hobbit trilogy look good by comparison and is obviously some foul creation of the Witch King.