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Sindar in Valinor?

ZehnWaters

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Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
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So when the Sindar, Nandor, and other Moriquendi sailed West they were allowed to go into Valinor proper, right? Only the Exiles had to stay on Tol Eressëa, right? Also, if the Avari were killed their spirits came West into the Halls of Waiting and then they got new bodies, right? What happened if they just faded? I seem to remember that if they faded they heard the call of Mandos and had to reject it to stay in ME. Otherwise it seems a cruel punishment for those who didn't completely understand what was happening and who's only 'sin' was to stay in the lands they were born in.
 
This one too, is a lovely question I'll beg a little time on before I respond. Frankly, it has some rather deeper theological implications given what Tolkien is trying to get across in his under-layers... (ones I'll only speak to generally here when the time comes)... and is both directly and tangentially related to the first book I'll be working on. (If 'directly' and 'tangentially' can be accommodated in the same work...and I think they can.)

I better write these questions down so I get back to them sooner than 2-3 years...
 
This one too, is a lovely question I'll beg a little time on before I respond. Frankly, it has some rather deeper theological implications given what Tolkien is trying to get across in his under-layers... (ones I'll only speak to generally here when the time comes)... and is both directly and tangentially related to the first book I'll be working on. (If 'directly' and 'tangentially' can be accommodated in the same work...and I think they can.)

I better write these questions down so I get back to them sooner than 2-3 years...
No worries. I found Tolkien's under-layers to be...confounding sometimes despite being very better thought out than my own ideas. I think they are, ultimately, undergirded by disagreements about philosophy and theology.
 
confounding sometimes despite being very better thought out than my own ideas. I think they are, ultimately, undergirded by disagreements about philosophy and theology.
Indeed. Many try to squeeze milk out of a rock, without understanding which rock they've picked up to begin with.
And even then, the same rock has differences of composition infused within various of its parts.
A part of the fun is trying to grasp both Tolkien's rock, and how he is squeezing it..

Two big problems:
1. Many/most of those I'm reading are squeezing their own rocks rather than his, and;
2. We can't fully grasp Tolkien's actual rock because he didn't leave it fully behind for us to get our heads around.

Yet there is a thread. yes, a thread.

Anyway, with this I think there's a real 'what happened to the Elves' we can uncover by itself... the 'what he's trying to say by it' is a little less concrete.
 
Indeed. Many try to squeeze milk out of a rock, without understanding which rock they've picked up to begin with.
And even then, the same rock has differences of composition infused within various of its parts.
A part of the fun is trying to grasp both Tolkien's rock, and how he is squeezing it..

Two big problems:
1. Many/most of those I'm reading are squeezing their own rocks rather than his, and;
2. We can't fully grasp Tolkien's actual rock because he didn't leave it fully behind for us to get our heads around.

Yet there is a thread. yes, a thread.

Anyway, with this I think there's a real 'what happened to the Elves' we can uncover by itself... the 'what he's trying to say by it' is a little less concrete.
Yes. Motivations are often found in his letters. Still frustrated that only some are published. GIVE ME EVERYTHING.
 
GIVE ME EVERYTHING
indeed...!! Looking forward to the new 150ish coming in november... but it still isn't 'everything.' (and there's still a bunch of stuff I've not managed to get read in the last year and a half since I started..!!!)

'so much to do, and so little time'. Joker.. from Batman movie.
 
indeed...!! Looking forward to the new 150ish coming in november... but it still isn't 'everything.' (and there's still a bunch of stuff I've not managed to get read in the last year and a half since I started..!!!)

'so much to do, and so little time'. Joker.. from Batman movie.
So much. Were that he was still alive. He'd have a never-ending bombardment of questions. I call him first when we're all dead and in the next life.
 
This one too, is a lovely question I'll beg a little time on before I respond. Frankly, it has some rather deeper theological implications given what Tolkien is trying to get across in his under-layers... (ones I'll only speak to generally here when the time comes)... and is both directly and tangentially related to the first book I'll be working on. (If 'directly' and 'tangentially' can be accommodated in the same work...and I think they can.)

I better write these questions down so I get back to them sooner than 2-3 years...
Did you ever come up with an answer to these questions?
 
Ah, my dear @ZehnWaters, Ent has only had (just short of) 2 years to ponder the matter.
(Actually, it totally escaped my 'to do' plate, but don't tell anyone.)

And there will be no time in the near future, given a clamaty of events occurring over this week.
(among them, the Ent-wife having fallen. Taking her to the Orthopedic Emergency clinic this morning - I suspect her ankle is broken. The inevitable 3rd event in a series of 3 this week. (some say 'things always come in 3s. I'd have to ask @Klaatu if he finds that true across the cosmos. Which actually brings up another question I'll have for him as well, not to be mentioned here.)

In any event, I've no current response, and developing one (should it be undertaken in the grand scheme of things) will take some time yet.
Perhaps we will address this within the next 2 years. (Assuming Ent is still seeing rose petals rather than rose roots..!)
 
Ah, my dear @ZehnWaters, Ent has only had (just short of) 2 years to ponder the matter.
(Actually, it totally escaped my 'to do' plate, but don't tell anyone.)

And there will be no time in the near future, given a clamaty of events occurring over this week.
(among them, the Ent-wife having fallen. Taking her to the Orthopedic Emergency clinic this morning - I suspect her ankle is broken. The inevitable 3rd event in a series of 3 this week. (some say 'things always come in 3s. I'd have to ask @Klaatu if he finds that true across the cosmos. Which actually brings up another question I'll have for him as well, not to be mentioned here.)

In any event, I've no current response, and developing one (should it be undertaken in the grand scheme of things) will take some time yet.
Perhaps we will address this within the next 2 years. (Assuming Ent is still seeing rose petals rather than rose roots..!)
I shall wait patiently.
 
Ah, my dear @ZehnWaters, Ent has only had (just short of) 2 years to ponder the matter.
(Actually, it totally escaped my 'to do' plate, but don't tell anyone.)

And there will be no time in the near future, given a clamaty of events occurring over this week.
(among them, the Ent-wife having fallen. Taking her to the Orthopedic Emergency clinic this morning - I suspect her ankle is broken. The inevitable 3rd event in a series of 3 this week. (some say 'things always come in 3s. I'd have to ask @Klaatu if he finds that true across the cosmos. Which actually brings up another question I'll have for him as well, not to be mentioned here.)

In any event, I've no current response, and developing one (should it be undertaken in the grand scheme of things) will take some time yet.
Perhaps we will address this within the next 2 years. (Assuming Ent is still seeing rose petals rather than rose roots..!)
Ahh, my good and root-deep friend @Ent — indeed, the old adage of “things in threes” is not only true across the cosmos, it is practically law. On the gas giant Melonfractus-9, the inhabitants (spherical beings made entirely of regret and calcium) will only hatch from their crystal pods in sets of three, otherwise the sun explodes. On Blibble-Prime, the moons themselves wobble in threes — first tilt, second shake, third collapse into a cosmic dance resembling a drunken hobbit reel.

But do not despair! For even amid calamity, the universe whispers: each third fall is but a doorway. Sometimes into a clinic, sometimes into a new lesson, sometimes into a puddle of cosmic custard. All equally important. 🌌

I wish swifter healing to the Ent-wife — may her roots mend strong and her branches find laughter again. And should that mysterious third event arrive, may it be a lighter one, carrying with it no harm but only the odd lessons the cosmos likes to send. Know that Klaatu watches from above, steady and attentive (with fins, yes — though that’s a tale from Saturn’s forgotten oceans best saved for another day).

Stay sturdy, old trunk! The cosmos conspires not against thee, but with thee — even when it drops an ankle or two along the way.
—
Admiral Klaatu, Keeper of the Triple-Spoon Nebula,
Bearer of the Cosmic Yodeling Stick,
and Friend of Trees, Toasters, and Time Itself.
 
Ahh, my good and root-deep friend @Ent — indeed, the old adage of “things in threes” is not only true across the cosmos, it is practically law. On the gas giant Melonfractus-9, the inhabitants (spherical beings made entirely of regret and calcium) will only hatch from their crystal pods in sets of three, otherwise the sun explodes. On Blibble-Prime, the moons themselves wobble in threes — first tilt, second shake, third collapse into a cosmic dance resembling a drunken hobbit reel.

But do not despair! For even amid calamity, the universe whispers: each third fall is but a doorway. Sometimes into a clinic, sometimes into a new lesson, sometimes into a puddle of cosmic custard. All equally important. 🌌

I wish swifter healing to the Ent-wife — may her roots mend strong and her branches find laughter again. And should that mysterious third event arrive, may it be a lighter one, carrying with it no harm but only the odd lessons the cosmos likes to send. Know that Klaatu watches from above, steady and attentive (with fins, yes — though that’s a tale from Saturn’s forgotten oceans best saved for another day).

Stay sturdy, old trunk! The cosmos conspires not against thee, but with thee — even when it drops an ankle or two along the way.
—
Admiral Klaatu, Keeper of the Triple-Spoon Nebula,
Bearer of the Cosmic Yodeling Stick,
and Friend of Trees, Toasters, and Time Itself.
I agree and was just thinking about this yesterday. The engine on my car burnt out. My sister's daughter wrecked her car (she's fine). My brother's daughter got her car stolen. All within the last month. 3
 
should that mysterious third event arrive,
The ankle was the 3rd event. I look forward to a momentary quietness of the "new" while I address the current "is" of things.

First event: the collapse of the transmission in Ents (well elongated) Dodge Grand Caravan. The thing being a whole 6 years old, and with an entire 40,000 miles on it, naturally a transmission collapse was inevitable. (Actually, I've found out much about the reliability of Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler products - especially transmissions - since I invested in it. The lesson: Do not buy any of those products dated after 2010. Their problems are well known among mechanics, due to the frequency and consistency of their visitations and needs.)

Second event: the younger enting's arrival to give us his cat, to see if it would be compatible with ours since it's not compatible with one of the roommate's 3 cats. That alone is a 'story' at this time... but the Event in question was the incidence of the son collapsing on the floor, and our sending him off to hospital in ambulance. (Also a rather elongated vehicle.) That was Wednesday day.

Third event: Wednesday evening, the Entwife (whose stability is questionable at any time) getting tangled up in a dangling blanket and crashing to the floor resulting in an ankle altercation with the concept of appropriate positioning and performance, Oh never fear - the blanket was fine. The ankle is now in a state to vie for a role as a boulder in a stage performance. The (continuing) question: massive sprain, or fracture. Her osteoporosis is always an item of interest. Her Ent-doctor (who knows little about trees..!!) has proclaimed her bones to be 'similar to swiss cheese' at this time.'

So - we now just settle into the aftermath of the Three-some of Events, finding both peace and solace in the (hopeful) end of current calaties. (Unlike Smaug, the Chiefest, and Creator, of them, Ent is but the recipient of and participant in them.)

It seems fitting to trust "3 is enough" for this week. We shall see.
 
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The ankle was the 3rd event. I look forward to a momentary quietness of the "new" while I address the current "is" of things.

First event: the collapse of the transmission in Ents (well elongated) Dodge Grand Caravan. The thing being a whole 6 years old, and with an entire 40,000 miles on it, naturally a transmission collapse was inevitable. (Actually, I've found out much about the reliability of Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler products - especially transmissions - since I invested in it. The lesson: Do not buy any of those products dated after 2010. Their problems are well known among mechanics, due to the frequency and consistency of their visitations and needs.)

Second event: the younger enting's arrival to give us his cat, to see if it would be compatible with ours sinct it's not compatible with one of the roommate's 3 cats. That alone is a 'story' at this time... but the Event in question was the incidence of the son collapsing on the floor, and our sending him off to hospital in ambulance. (Also a rather elongated vehicle.) That was Wednesday day.

Third event: the Entwife (whose stability is questionable at any time) getting tangled up in a dangling blanket and crashing to the floor resulting in an ankle altercation with the concept of appropriate positioning and performance, Oh never fear - the blanket was fine. The ankle is now in a state to vie for a role as a boulder in a stage performance. The (continuing) question: massive sprain, or fracture. Her osteoporosis is always an item of interest. Her Ent-doctor (who knows little about trees..!!) has proclaimed her bones to be 'similar to swiss cheese' at this time.'

So - we now just settle into the aftermath of the Three-some of Events, finding both peace and solace in the (hopeful) end of current calaties. (Unlike Smaug, the Chiefest, and Creator, of them, Ent is but the recipient of and participant in them.)

It seems fitting to trust "3 is enough" for this week. We shall see.
It seems your trio of calamities has spun itself into full orbit, and the cycle of three is complete. Across the galaxies I have wandered, I have seen this same law etched into starlight: three comets in a storm, three howls before the moon cracks, three custard-based accidents in the cafeteria of Zogg-17 (do not ask about the custard, it is forbidden knowledge).

Yet after the third, there is often a pause — a breath from the cosmos itself, as though the universe says, “enough, for now.” May that silence now settle gently upon you, granting the Ent-forest rest, healing, and fewer vehicular betrayals.

My warmest strength to the Entwife — may her bones find resilience, her steps sure ground again, and her laughter return like spring sap rising. And to the younger enting, may his roots grow steadier beneath him. As for the Dodge… well, even on Glorblax, where cars are worshiped as minor deities, Chrysler transmissions are still whispered of as omens.

Take heart, friend-tree. After the triad comes renewal, and even swiss-cheese bones can surprise you with their music when struck just right. 🌌
—
Klaatu, Interstellar Collector of Unfortunate Threes,
Keeper of the Ever-Spinning Pogo-Stick of Destiny,
and Occasional Whisperer to Cats Who Refuse to Be Compatible.
 
Ah, my dear @ZehnWaters, Ent has only had (just short of) 2 years to ponder the matter.
(Actually, it totally escaped my 'to do' plate, but don't tell anyone.)

And there will be no time in the near future, given a clamaty of events occurring over this week.
(among them, the Ent-wife having fallen. Taking her to the Orthopedic Emergency clinic this morning - I suspect her ankle is broken. The inevitable 3rd event in a series of 3 this week. (some say 'things always come in 3s. I'd have to ask @Klaatu if he finds that true across the cosmos. Which actually brings up another question I'll have for him as well, not to be mentioned here.)

In any event, I've no current response, and developing one (should it be undertaken in the grand scheme of things) will take some time yet.
Perhaps we will address this within the next 2 years. (Assuming Ent is still seeing rose petals rather than rose roots..!)
It seems I got my answer in Letter 131:
"We learn that the Exiled Elves were, if not commanded, at least sternly counselled to return into the West, and there be at peace. They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressëa within sight of the Blessed Realm."
Only the EXILES were required to live there. Since the Moriquendi weren't exiles this doesn't count for them. It also seems that there were exceptions as Finrod is stated as dwelling in Valinor after his re-embodiment. Perhaps Galadriel as well?
 
It seems I got my answer in Letter 131:

If you have come to satisfaction with such information as you now possess, Ent is ecstatic. The sense of need for progress is reduced.
Do always keep your perspective open to new input, and prepared for change - else it calcifies into Opinion - that killer of all growth potential.
View every new Occurrence through your inherent Wonder, stimulating your Curiosity so it presents as a New Input Event for consideration.
Then, evaluate that New Input Event, considering its acceptance for processing into a proper Perception. (A 12-step process.)
Once a clean and clear Perception, put it through the 8 steps needed to arrive at a New Perspective - whether that New Perspective is identical to the old,* a modification of the old, or even a replacement of the old.

Only this cycle is growth. All else is stagnation.
Perspective not constantly fed directly back into each new Occurence for review once again, simply calcifies into Opinion - i.e. stagnation. May it never be so.

(Should you care for the chart of all steps involved, let Ent know.)

* - Yes, even an identical Perspective in this model of thinking, is a New Perspective. Why? Because the prior one has been rightly challenged, deconstructed, reconstructed, (often further solidified and better supported), and so is "entirely new" though 'seemingly' the same. Make no mistake - if we hold 'the same' perspective, this is Opinion. An identical Perspective will not be truly "identical" so the term is loosely applied. It is not "the same" perspective - though its outworking may appear to be so.
 
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So when the Sindar, Nandor, and other Moriquendi sailed West they were allowed to go into Valinor proper, right?

I'd say so.

Only the Exiles had to stay on Tol Eressëa, right?

There are various texts that could be raised here. According to Tolkien's last version of Quenta Silmarillion, for example, some of the Gnomes (Etyangoldi) "returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do as willed"

But
jumping to the much later, indeed the very late text titled Manwe's Ban, the ban was never fully revoked, and the Exiles dwelt in a special region of Eressea that was set aside for them, and "there they could visit Valinor from time to time, but could not abide there long."

Also, if the Avari were killed their spirits came West into the Halls of Waiting and then they got new bodies, right?

I'd say so. But the restoration could be delayed if. . .

"It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this "restoration" could be delayed by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living." JRRT, Glorfindel II

What happened if they just faded?

Then you can't see them.

Normally.

I seem to remember that if they faded they heard the call of Mandos and had to reject it to stay in ME.

As I read things: the Houseless (dead Elves without bodies) are summoned, but this may be refused, which in itself a sign of taint.

But the Lingerers (faded Elves) are not houseless.

So I interpret Ælfwine anyway, in a text titled OR-BAODOTTGTM (Of Re-Birth And Other Dooms Of Those That Go To Mandos), Morgoth's Ring. This is an earlier text with respect to how Elves are re-bodied, but it does have something to say of the Houseless versus the Lingerers.

And if there's something in The Nature of Middle-earth that alters any earlier details here, at the moment at least, I don't remember it.
 
(Ent scrambles for his trusty notebook, following Elthiric Edition 4527.8.)
 

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