Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

[Olorgando]

... and my understanding is yet incomplete.

Not to worry. JRRT wrote about *Silmarillion material* from about 1917 to 1973, so about 56 years. It's safe to assume that even his understanding of his own material was never complete ...

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

As far as a timeline of "ages" goes, in Letter 211, to Rhona Beare, Tolkien mentions the "evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dur and our Days", and in the note says:

*I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.

 

[Radaghast]

Hmmm, I might not take Christopher's word for it.

Many seem to take issue with the job he did on The Silmarillion.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Many seem to take issue with the job he did on The Silmarillion.

It's not that I disagree with the work he did to bring his father's work to us, it's more of a, I would only take J.R.R. Tolkien himself's word about Middle-Earth.

 

[Olorgando]

I would only take J.R.R. Tolkien himself's word about Middle-Earth.

If by that you mean "author-published", it leaves LotR and TH - and the latter fits imperfectly into Middle-earth.
Christopher Tolkien published endless words by his father. Unfortunately, over the 56 years of writing, they often contradicted themselves, or older unrevised parts could not be reconciled with newer parts. The second book collecting writings of JRRT'S published by Christopher Tolkien after the cobbled-together "Silmarillion" was named "Unfinished Tales" - a fitting heading for JRRT's life as a writer, often even in his professional field of philology.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

If by that you mean "author-published", it leaves LotR and TH - and the latter fits imperfectly into Middle-earth.
Christopher Tolkien published endless words by his father. Unfortunately, over the 56 years of writing, they often contradicted themselves, or older unrevised parts could not be reconciled with newer parts. The second book collecting writings of JRRT'S published by Christopher Tolkien after the cobbled-together "Silmarillion" was named "Unfinished Tales" - a fitting heading for JRRT's life as a writer, often even in his professional field of philology.

I'm going to reference the Art of War by Sun Tzu. Seeming contradictions and opposites can and do exist in the same continuum.

 

[Radaghast]

It should be noted that the elder and younger Tolkien collaborated extensively while the former was alive. Besides JRRT himself, there was no greater authority on the legendarium than Christopher Tolkien.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

It should be noted that the elder and younger Tolkien collaborated extensively while the former was alive. Besides JRRT himself, there was no greater authority on the legendarium than Christopher Tolkien.

True, but Christopher was no J.R.R.

 

[Elthir]

I can find no mention of a Second Music in my 2002 "The History of Middle-earth Index", only to the Second Prophecy of Mandos. (. . .) I (too) have a memory of *something music-like?* involving Men but not Elves at the End of Days. Possibly JRRT simply did not refer to it as the Second Music, so that there is no such entry in the Index volume.

It's referred to as the Second Music of the Ainur in chapter one of Quenta Silmarillion, where indeed the Valar declare that Men shall join in the Second Music, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end.

There is the part in volume X "Morgoth's Ring", part four "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where there is a hint at least of the (first) coming of Christ in the future (snip for brevity). I doubt it would have been included in any form of the Silmarillion hypothetically published by JRRT himself, no more than (. . .)

The newspapers in which the Athrabeth and the "Commentary" were preserved bear the Tolkienian inscription:

Addit. Silmarillion
__________
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
__________
Commentary​

And Christopher Tolkien reveals: "On one of these wrappers my father added: "Should be last item in an appendix" (i.e. to The Silmarillion). That said, Christopher Tolkien did not, of course, appendix his Silmarillion in this way, but then again, Christopher Tolkien did not publish JRRT's Silmarillion. . .

. . . the hypothetical one

In other words: "Hmm" and yeggs 🥚

 

[Elthir]

" . . . that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos" JRR Tolkien

I think Christopher Tolkien felt this contradicted what Tolkien wrote of the Second Prophecy and so removed the Dagor Dagorath from The Silmarillion.

And I agree with Christopher Tolkien that it does contradict the Second Prophecy, but I'd word things slightly differently here, to say that Christopher Tolkien removed the Second Prophecy of Mandos.



Meaning Christopher Tolkien did not remove any and all references to a Last Battle from his constructed Silmarillion, he removed a specifically worded Prophecy from one of the Valar.

And for the thread I note the following from Christopher Tolkien's Silmarillion, Of The Coming Of The Elves: ". . . and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days."

Also, from Akallabêth (the 1977 constructed Silmarillion again): ". . . there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom."

Mandos, however, is not giving any of this as a prophecy. As Christopher Tolkien rightly notes, that much was abandoned by Tolkien himself.

 

[Elthir]

The Second Prophecy of Mandos isn't canon?

Not in my view of canon, but in any case, I'd say it was abandoned by Tolkien himself, and we don't have to take Christopher Tolkien's word for it -- as, not only was the text that Radaghast posted from JRRT, but Tolkien would also go on to state that this description (from the Second Prophecy) was a Mannish Myth.

Moreover, it can or might be argued that even after re-characterizing this Valarin prophecy as a Mannish idea, JRRT still might have shelved it altogether, or possibly at least refrained from giving it much detail -- noting, for example, in a late text Tolkien appears to have Túrin returning for a "Last Battle" at the end of the First Age (thus The War of Wrath), according to "another" prophecy from Andreth the Wise woman (again, not one of the Valar obviously, in any case).

What does this mean? Does it necessarily mean that all the details of the (now) Mannish Myth were wholly to be erased, and the Healing of Arda was to be accomplished in some other way? I'm not sure anyone can answer this question with certainty; and I'm not sure the Legendarium need only refer to one way, and one way only, with respect to the End Times, or the Marring of Arda being Healed.

"What then was this hope, if you know?" asked Finrod.

"They say," answered Andreth: "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing."
JRRT, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Morgoth's Ring​

In any case, I'm always attentive to any words from the great and golden Artanis, who once said:
"But Galadriel said: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"

JRRT, Many Partings, The Return of the King 🐾

 

[Olorgando]

It's referred to as the Second Music of the Ainur in chapter one of Quenta Silmarillion, where indeed the Valar declare that Men shall join in the Second Music, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end.

On a hunch, I checked the index volume for "Music of the Ainur", which yielded sub-entries "Second Music of the Ainur" for volume V, pp 157, 163, 166, and volume X pp 21, 37, 43.

V/p.157 has wording identical to that in the published "Silmarillion" (though in the section "Ainulindalë", not the section "Quenta Silmarillion"):
"... though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days."
I read this wording as not excluding the Elves. 🤔

V/p.163 states:
"But the sons of Men die indeed. Yet it is said that they will join in the Second Music of the Ainur {endnote 25}, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes foe Elves and Valar (?!?!?) after the world's end;"
Waitamint, the Second Music if after the end of days ... so these "choirs of the Ainur" exclude the Valar, or what??? 🤯

V/p.166 has endnote 25.

X/pp.21-22 repeats the wording of V/p.163 above from "Yet it is said".

X/p.37 states:
"Yet of old the Valar said unto us that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes foe Elves after the World's end."

X/p.43 states:
"Yet the Valar say that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur, but Manwë alone knoweth what Ilúvatar hath purposed for the Elves after the World's end."

Anyone want to venture a guess why I have never read a single volume of HoMe more than once cover-to-cover? 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Anyone want to venture a guess why I have never read a single volume of HoMe more than once cover-to-cover? 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

It's a lot?
Anyway, all this sounds like lorebuilding, even the apparent contradictions. I perceive them working together well.

 

[Radaghast]

It's a lot?
Anyway, all this sounds like lorebuilding, even the apparent contradictions. I perceive them working together well.

12 volumes. I haven't gotten past the first volume, The Book of Lost Tales, Part One, myself.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

12 volumes. I haven't gotten past the first volume, The Book of Lost Tales, Part One, myself.

Where do the Unfinished Tales fall among this list? Also, is there a determined list of all the Middle-Earth books written by J.R.R. and published by him, Christopher, or Michael?

 

[Radaghast]

Where do the Unfinished Tales fall among this list?

Unfinished Tales was a follow-up to The Silmarillion. The success of UT led to the publication of The History of Middle-earth 12-volume series. The 'history' in the title I think refers more to Tolkien's forming the legendarium more than the in-story history. Other than different versions of certain stories it contains a lot of letters, essays, etc.

Also, is there a determined list of all the Middle-Earth books written by J.R.R. and published by him, Christopher, or Michael?

Wikipedia has a reliable bibliography, I believe.

 

[Andromadus the Invictus]

Unfinished Tales was a follow-up to The Silmarillion. The success of UT led to the publication of The History of Middle-earth 12-volume series. The 'history' in the title I think refers more to Tolkien's forming the stories more than the in-story history. Other than different versions of certain stories it contains a lot of letters, essays, etc.

Wikipedia has a reliable bibliography, I believe.

Cool, thanks!

 

[Olorgando]

It's a lot?

The twelve volumes of Christopher Tolkien's "The History of Middle-earth" total almost 5,300 pages. I bought and read them perhaps starting in the late 1980's, but most of them in the 1990's up to 1996, when the last volume was published. I never managed to finish volume III "The Lays of Beleriand".

Anyway, all this sounds like lorebuilding, even the apparent contradictions. I perceive them working together well.

Oh yes. But JRRT had actually first begun with language-building (apparently in mind-numbing detail, as he was an extremely competent philologist). He then got the feeling that a language needs a people speaking it, and recording their mythology, legends and history. And he kept switching from one pole to the other, at least early on. His writings on linguistics may be huge, but they probably need specialists' specialists to deal with them, so publication for a general audience similar to HoMe seems extremely unlikely.

 

[Elthir]

Anyone want to venture a guess why I have never read a single volume of HoMe more than once cover-to-cover? 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

Maybe you misplaced the keys to your HOME library? Just a guess.

Anyway, indeed the constructed Silmarillion itself contains the Children of Ilúvatar participating in the Second Music, and the idea that what Ilúvatar had devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end has not been revealed even to the Valar.

After remarking on the revision to the Ainulindale (in the 1930s), Christopher Tolkien notes (The Book of Lost Tales I): "It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up. However, in the published work (pp. 15, 42) I left the two passages as they stand."

CJRT Commentary, The Music of the Ainur

Anyway, all this sounds like lorebuilding, even the apparent contradictions. I perceive them working together well.

I'm very hesitant to go there, at least with respect to "all" this. Generally speaking now, what we have in The History of Middle-Earth is a lot of ideas changing, being refined, being updated, or even dropping out, over the years. This would be external stuff.

And all the references Gando quoted above are essentially from the "same" source -- some form of The Music of the Ainur*.

Anyway, yes, as noted above, we do have "the two" seemingly confusing statements in the one text -- is this intentional world-building? I dunno. Again, Christopher Tolkien guesses that JRRT had made an oversight here, thus something he might not have intended. Granted that's a guess. . . but still!

But for example, as far as the "Manwe knowing" statement, this comes from an earlier version of the Ainulindale, with Christopher Tolkien employing the wording from a later text for the 1977 "published" Silmarillion -- wording in which Manwe is not mentioned. For myself, I doubt this was intended as an in-story "difference" as part of world-building.

In other words, the Reader would not see both versions of the same statement in the one, finally published (by the author, in theory) section of the Music of the Ainur -- and we only see both (now) due to the various draft texts having been published by CJRT.

__________

*In his general treatment of the Ainulindale (which I won't go into here), it was Christopher Tolkien who moved the statement -- that the Valar declare that Men shall join in the Second Music, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end -- from the Ainulindale to Quenta Silmarillion.

 

[Olorgando]

Maybe you misplaced the keys to your HOME library? Just a guess.

No, it was never locked away.
I'm also guessing, but it might be that I started discovering the books of Humphrey Carpenter, Tom Shippey, Katharyn Crabbe, Patrick Curry, Joseph Pearce continuing on to Carl Hostetter's 2021 "The Nature of Middle-earth" and Brian Sibley's 2022 "The Fall of Númenor". Meanwhile, Christopher Tolkien continued to publish books on Middle-earth up to 2018 (John Rateliff handling the history of TH), and also works by his father on non-M-e topics like Arthur, Beowulf, Sigurd & Gudrun ... Verlyn Flieger editing JRRT's forays into Breton and Finnish territory.
In short: my JRRT library is easily three times the size it was in 1996, possibly five times if I cast the net wider.
And I basically read HoMe between the ages of 30 (-something) to 40. I definitely no longer have the reading stamina of 28 years ago, or even 18 or 8.