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Discussion ~ Annals of the Kings of the North ~

Valandil

High King at Annuminas
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
599
I just posted a sort of fanfic which I thought I had posted here long ago. After awhile, I realized that I never posted it here after all - though I had on a few other sites.

I call it "Annals of the Kings of the North" - and it is a list of kings, with dates and short biographies, which was really intended as a framework for my other fanfiction. It's similar to the list of Numenor's Kings (and Queens) in Unfinished Tales.

You'll find this thread here - https://thetolkien.forum/threads/annals-of-the-kings-of-the-north.32814/
 
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Thank you for posting this here! I do remember seeing this (or part of this) on the old One Ring. com in the Reading Room forum they had.
 
Racial policies, a very key element of Arnor's national affiars's progress could be discussed more further, since we knew that the hill-men had bunches of show in the whole Arnor's history, just consider my offer. In addition, the reason Gondor didn't establish Arnor could discussed further as well, since making such a military-highly valuable place with power vacantcy seemed to have a lot of space to discuss, hope my offer helps you ;)
 
Racial policies, a very key element of Arnor's national affiars's progress could be discussed more further, since we knew that the hill-men had bunches of show in the whole Arnor's history, just consider my offer. In addition, the reason Gondor didn't establish Arnor could discussed further as well, since making such a military-highly valuable place with power vacantcy seemed to have a lot of space to discuss, hope my offer helps you ;)
I'm not 100% certain what it is you'd like to discuss - but discussion is always welcome. What specifics?

If they go far beyond this bit of fanfiction - why don't you start a separate thread in an appropriate area about it. But if you do - please link it here so we can find it easily.

Thank you.
 
@Valandil - I do have a question on your Cardolanion Line of Kings. I have read a fanfic of a 'lost daughter' of Cardolan and I noticed you mention an infant daughter taken into the woods ... Galien. For some reason I am intrigued by this character.

I love reading your stories here, and am curious if you are open to more details being developed for some of those mentioned in your story?
 
@Valandil - I do have a question on your Cardolanion Line of Kings. I have read a fanfic of a 'lost daughter' of Cardolan and I noticed you mention an infant daughter taken into the woods ... Galien. For some reason I am intrigued by this character.

I love reading your stories here, and am curious if you are open to more details being developed for some of those mentioned in your story?
Thank you for asking.

I'll have to check - but I may have stated that she married someone who became King of Arthedain.

As Arnor/Arthedain shrank - I sort of have a daughter from each line of nobles that is being eliminated marry into the royal family of Arthedain. Keeps their family line gong, though not in a patrilineal sense. If I have time, I'll go back and check wives of Arthedain kings in subsequent years - or you can check for me if you like. :)

The summary in Appendix A does indicate that some of those Dunedain in Cardolan survived that onslaught of Angmar by retreating into the Old Forest. That gives me the avenue for her escape. It's also an old trope, perhaps - even in Biblical accounts of ancient kings of Judah - of a child being saved when a family is otherwise wiped out. I think I have similar incidents in all the turmoil depicted in Rhudaur.
 
Thank you for asking.

I'll have to check - but I may have stated that she married someone who became King of Arthedain.

As Arnor/Arthedain shrank - I sort of have a daughter from each line of nobles that is being eliminated marry into the royal family of Arthedain. Keeps their family line gong, though not in a patrilineal sense. If I have time, I'll go back and check wives of Arthedain kings in subsequent years - or you can check for me if you like. :)

The summary in Appendix A does indicate that some of those Dunedain in Cardolan survived that onslaught of Angmar by retreating into the Old Forest. That gives me the avenue for her escape. It's also an old trope, perhaps - even in Biblical accounts of ancient kings of Judah - of a child being saved when a family is otherwise wiped out. I think I have similar incidents in all the turmoil depicted in Rhudaur.

I happened to find it right away. It was Araphor who married her.

Whenever I get back to fleshing things out and writing my stories - I intend to make Araphor into a sort of King Arthur figure. The names sound similar enough (to me), he comes to the throne at a very young age, and reigns for a very long time. The Civil War in Gondor occurs during his reign. Lots of story possibilities...
 
I happened to find it right away. It was Araphor who married her.

Whenever I get back to fleshing things out and writing my stories - I intend to make Araphor into a sort of King Arthur figure. The names sound similar enough (to me), he comes to the throne at a very young age, and reigns for a very long time. The Civil War in Gondor occurs during his reign. Lots of story possibilities...
For my Araphor ~ Arthur…

I’ve set up remnants of a cavalry
A Morgan Le Fay type of person

Plus there’s a likely wandering wizard.

After the great battles of 1409, I think there would be peace for a long time, after the damage to Angmar’s forces. Opens up access to traveling about, with possibilities of Elves, Dwarves (of Moria), maybe giants, a mysterious guy in a blue jacket and yellow boots a bit to the south - and a very young King who might be inclined to go adventuring!
 
@Valandil - I do have a question on your Cardolanion Line of Kings. I have read a fanfic of a 'lost daughter' of Cardolan and I noticed you mention an infant daughter taken into the woods ... Galien. For some reason I am intrigued by this character.

I love reading your stories here, and am curious if you are open to more details being developed for some of those mentioned in your story?
BTW - Anything in particular grab you about her? Maybe she is taken to Fornost as an infant, right after things settle down? Or maybe she lives in the Old Forest until she’s a young girl, then is led to Fornost?

OR… maybe she entirely grows up in the Old Forest and other areas associated with the Cardolan that is no more. Until Araphor meets her in his travels?

Her story has not been entirely written - just the very beginning and eventual destiny. A lot can happen in between! How would YOU like to see it happen? 🙂

Note that the burial mounds would not be inhabited yet by Wights. Not for another 200 years.

Oh - and tell me about the fanfic you read. Direct me to it if you can. I don’t believe I’m familiar with it, so unless I’ve forgotten, I don’t think I was influenced by it.
 
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Thanks for getting back to me @Valandil! I'm going to fangirl a little here and tell you I really like your 'Annals of the Kings of the North' project! I do like the tie-ins of the line of women from Rhudaur and Cardolan royal line into the Arthedain royal line in both stories you wrote. I remember taking inspiration from you when I first saw your 'Northern Kings' posts on the writing forum on the old One Ring-com (circa 2010-2011). I was in high school and crudely wrote up a 'line of princesses' for Cardolan in the format you used. It was based on the unbroken line of Elendil through the direct male heirs to Aragorn and Eldarion, but was a direct female line.... the eldest daughter (not necessarily the eldest child) born from generation to generation. I had many of them marry either the younger sons of the eldest northern line; descendants of the two younger sons of Arvedui; and a few marrying sons of Gondor.


Her story has not been entirely written - just the very beginning and eventual destiny. A lot can happen in between! How would YOU like to see it happen? 🙂

Oh dear... my imagination has become alight! Along with the aforementioned chronology, I wrote a (not very good) 'Lost Princess of Cardolan' fanfic back then as part of an attempt at NaNoWriMo. I probably still have the word file somewhere. I had a good start, but time became my enemy and much of it was just outlined. Let me get back to you on this!


Oh - and tell me about the fanfic you read. Direct me to it if you can. I don’t believe I’m familiar with it, so unless I’ve forgotten, I don’t think I was influenced by it.

I'm searching for the fan fic, but the link went to 'Many Paths To Tread' Middle Earth fanfiction site which sadly is no more. I'll search Stories of Arda and AO3 and see if I can locate it as I recognize some of the same writer names there.
 
Thanks for getting back to me @Valandil! I'm going to fangirl a little here and tell you I really like your 'Annals of the Kings of the North' project! I do like the tie-ins of the line of women from Rhudaur and Cardolan royal line into the Arthedain royal line in both stories you wrote. I remember taking inspiration from you when I first saw your 'Northern Kings' posts on the writing forum on the old One Ring-com (circa 2010-2011). I was in high school and crudely wrote up a 'line of princesses' for Cardolan in the format you used. It was based on the unbroken line of Elendil through the direct male heirs to Aragorn and Eldarion, but was a direct female line.... the eldest daughter (not necessarily the eldest child) born from generation to generation. I had many of them marry either the younger sons of the eldest northern line; descendants of the two younger sons of Arvedui; and a few marrying sons of Gondor.




Oh dear... my imagination has become alight! Along with the aforementioned chronology, I wrote a (not very good) 'Lost Princess of Cardolan' fanfic back then as part of an attempt at NaNoWriMo. I probably still have the word file somewhere. I had a good start, but time became my enemy and much of it was just outlined. Let me get back to you on this!




I'm searching for the fan fic, but the link went to 'Many Paths To Tread' Middle Earth fanfiction site which sadly is no more. I'll search Stories of Arda and AO3 and see if I can locate it as I recognize some of the same writer names there.
Wow - that's very kind. And flattering! So you were reading those "Northern Kingdom" posts way back when. Did you post at all, or just read?

That was a lot of fun. The core co-authors were a group from the Entmoot forum. We did a role-play together there in similar fashion (setting: the young King Valandil goes to college at the University of Southern Arnor (in Tharbad - it was a party school, of sorts), while the Nazgul try to trip him up, or wraith him, or whatever - about year 40 or 60 of the Third Age, I think). Then one of them launched the Northern Kingdom site for the particular focus of a storyline dealing with the fall of Rhudaur. We started to tell other side stories along the way, and eventually... well, as we concluded, it sort of collapsed under its own weight. I was mostly to blame. I became a key part of the story generation - but became unable to keep up with the posting needed. Ah - life! Great group of people, and we had so much fun doing it. All this was between 15-20 years ago - or so.

And now, I think Entmoot is no more. I was an Admin there. It has been up, but inactive for awhile - but it doesn't seem to be up any more. I need to write the owner and see if he finally pulled the plug, or if there's a bug of some kind.

Time constraints have really limited what I've wanted to do. I once jotted down about 90 story ideas I had for the Northern Dunedain - going back to their immediate forbears on Numenor (Elendil, Amandil - I think his father was Numendil), on down to The Early Adventures of Aragorn. And I've written so little. I got started with an Entmoot thread called "Letters From Middle Earth" - where I wrote a series of 12 letters from Firiel to her mother - except the last one or two must have been to a daughter or someone. I guess Firiel was one of those daughters of a last king, who married into the line of Northern Dunedain Kings - right? Anyway, I wrote that before even thinking of further writing efforts. I just wanted to flesh out my vision of Gondor and Arnor in the mid to late 1900s Third Age. I've only written 2-3 others - and think my best is "Visitors Come to Court". Next I've always wanted to write either "The Fall of Arnor" - or the story that fulfills the prophecy spoken by Glorfindel near the end of Visitors. :)

So I know very well how much of an enemy time can become. I thought back then - if I could gradually work on it over the next 20 years, I would have it. Here I am now, all these years later, and there's so much still to do. Maybe once I can retire? Always so much to do.

I'd love to see what you've written in the past, and hear your ideas now. I won't promise to incorporate anything - but who knows. Or - you might as soon keep your own work distinct. I had to look up NaNoWriMo - interesting.
 
I remember reading your three stories on The One Ring's Scriptorium of Imladris when I was ... 14!
I read the excerpts of your Annals of the Northern Kings a couple years later when you posted it there.

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What specifics?
For instances, hill-men were allowed to enter the Arnor Council and get elected?(or appointed?) as Council Men or not, or hill-men military personnel were restricted of their promotion or not, yeah, anything about racial policies changes in each reign of Arnor Kings, is what I'm asking. I hope this make you understand enough what I mean 😅
 
For instances, hill-men were allowed to enter the Arnor Council and get elected?(or appointed?) as Council Men or not, or hill-men military personnel were restricted of their promotion or not, yeah, anything about racial policies changes in each reign of Arnor Kings, is what I'm asking. I hope this make you understand enough what I mean 😅
Okay - I'll try to address that. There just seemed like so many different directions we could go from the first time you brought it up, so I wanted to narrow it down.

= = = = =

When Elendil and his four ships of Exiles from Numenor came to Middle-Earth and began to establish Arnor, I think there were two kinds of people living there:

Dunedain whose descendants had begun to colonize Eriador many years before - and because they were a sea-faring people, I suspect they were mainly along the principal waterways. But who's to say if that's so - they've been there long enough. Some time before the Fall of Numenor - I think Pelargir had become a preferred destination for those Faithful who emigrated to Middle-Earth. And I think those in Eriador were among the Faithful, for they settled in lands under the dominion of Gil-Galad (which he seems to have freely given up to Elendil's rule), rather than go to south-lands, where the King's Men dominated.

The second group pre-dated the early Numenorean colonists and were largely the Gwathurim (if I spell it correctly). These were the Bree-folk, and were likely in many other parts of Eriador. They were not so advanced - and probably lived simpler lives, maybe not so numerous.

I can't say how they were integrated into Arnor governmentally - and we don't know any particulars about how Arnor's government was structured - other than that they had a King. They seemed to be tolerant of the Gwathurim - and likely allowed them to run their own towns. Probably similar when the halflings migrated into Arthedain years later - though they seem to have been mistreated (maybe not officially) before that, in Rhudaur. Maybe the Gwathurim paid taxes to the King of Arnor, maybe not, maybe in certain circumstances. Military - they could probably serve. A Dunedain man who desired to make the military a career could be in it for several decades - 60, 80, 100 years - maybe more. Regular folks couldn't keep up.

My guess would be that most of the high positions of Arnor went to nobles, and that the noble positions were hereditary, beginning with the leaders of the Exiles who came off those four ships. I doubt there would have been room in high positions for Gwathurim at the Kingdom level (though the local level is a different thing). And it's likely that even the long-time Dunedain colonists from centuries before were initially second-class citizens in Arnor - though in a few generations there would have been much intermarriage among these (they were all Dunedain, after all), and maybe less distinction between old colonists and Exiles.

These theories largely follow one of the articles written by Michael Martinez, and referenced before. It's: "Seeking the Wayward Children of Numenor" - interesting read.

Much speculation.

= = = = =

The Hill-Men could have been of the same racial stock as the Gwathurim, though we don't know. They appear to have become very much integrated into Rhudaur, particularly after the rise of Angmar. And that eventually became lethal to the Dunedain of Rhudaur. If there were racial biases involved, I would say that the Dunedain of Rhudaur were very tolerant and inclusive of the Hill-Men - but that the Hill-Men hated the Dunedain and worked toward their destruction, especially as they gained more and more power, backed by their buddies in Angmar. Lots of changes there in just over 100 years - from around 1300 to 1409 of the Third Age.

= = = = =

Does this answer what you were asking? JRRT certainly gives us nothing more specific on all this.
 
I'd love to see what you've written in the past, and hear your ideas now. I won't promise to incorporate anything - but who knows. Or - you might as soon keep your own work distinct.

I found my old story drafts on a CD-ROM that was still in the drive of an old computer I had in storage. I managed to save them to new Word documents and will edit my 'Lost Princess' story to make it readable and will post it here. I have two versions (why do I do that to myself?). In summary, one is of a young child who doesn't know her royal lineage due to being an infant and being the lone survivor in a massacre when Lords of Cardolan were battling each other. I took some inspiration from the LotRo game map and the Tom Bombadil quote ...
"..Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords..."
I sort of emphasized the quarrels in Cardolan after the line of Elendil was broken with the various princes of fiefdoms within Cardolan touting their maternal connections to the royal line. There was fighting among them, and with houses in both Arthedain and Rhudaur, and then came the plague.

I like the timelines you have in your Letters, and the last ones are quite intense with the grandchildren and all.
 
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Your lost princess sounds like she could be the one who marries Araphor, from my account. Maybe her identity is not certain at first, and verified later? Maybe not even known until well after married?
 
I need to read through your Cardolan lineage again as I edit. I hope you don't mind if I tap into your fanon some. I promise to keep it within your 'head-canon' when I do.

I read through more of my old stuff and I actually have three maternal lines stemming from Cardolanion royalty. I thinkk every time I had an idea I just created a new line. 😆
 

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