What if 👁️Sauron had opposed Melkor but still been bad?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Suppose that Sauron, desiring order, realized that Melkor and his desire for chaos would NEVER lead to his plans being fulfilled, and so opposed him. However, we can assume that he's not a Valar lackey, but would still desire order and would likely even point out the failings of the Valar to the Noldor and Men and sway many to his side. The Elves weren't on the best terms with the Valar and they hated Melkor. As such, it's easy to see them allying with a powerful being that wasn't fond of the Valar but also opposed Morgoth.

Now, I'm sure that Sauron couldn't have defeated Melkor in open combat, and was well aware of that, but he undoubtedly would be a strong aid to the Noldor and the other Elves. In fact, if he started out early enough, he might even be able to sway the Telari to join the Noldor in defying the Valar and going after Melkor, thus avoiding the kinslaying and the dividing of the Elves, and he could point out the Valar's hesistancy to personally go after Melkor as to why they were so inept and he'd be better.

If he could seduce all those people and even, for a while, the Elves, in the Second Age, he'd be absolutely dangerous in the First Age. And I could see him eventually urging the Noldor to defy their ban from Valar and try an attack upon the Undying Lands, just like he did the Numenoreans in canon.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Suppose that Sauron, desiring order, realized that Melkor and his desire for chaos would NEVER lead to his plans being fulfilled, and so opposed him. However, we can assume that he's not a Valar lackey, but would still desire order and would likely even point out the failings of the Valar to the Noldor and Men and sway many to his side. The Elves weren't on the best terms with the Valar and they hated Melkor. As such, it's easy to see them allying with a powerful being that wasn't fond of the Valar but also opposed Morgoth.

Now, I'm sure that Sauron couldn't have defeated Melkor in open combat, and was well aware of that, but he undoubtedly would be a strong aid to the Noldor and the other Elves. In fact, if he started out early enough, he might even be able to sway the Telari to join the Noldor in defying the Valar and going after Melkor, thus avoiding the kinslaying and the dividing of the Elves, and he could point out the Valar's hesistancy to personally go after Melkor as to why they were so inept and he'd be better.

If he could seduce all those people and even, for a while, the Elves, in the Second Age, he'd be absolutely dangerous in the First Age. And I could see him eventually urging the Noldor to defy their ban from Valar and try an attack upon the Undying Lands, just like he did the Numenoreans in canon.

Without a curse on them (which only came thanks to the Kinslaying), they'd suffer less (and certainly the poor Sindar, Men, and Dwarves who got caught up with the Valar's wide-spanning and (in my opinion) unfair curse). But, as the Valar pointed out, there's no winning against Morgoth, even with a powerful Maia's help. I mean, even the hosts of the Valinor struggled.

Having said all that, Sauron would have needed to side with the Valar sooner if he's going to be around the Elves to prevent the Kin-slaying.

 

[Klaatu]

It’s a fascinating hypothetical — and one Tolkien himself gently leaves space for in the texts, given that Sauron initially served Aulë and was drawn to order, structure, and perfection. He wasn’t a firebrand like Melkor, but rather a bureaucratic seducer — the sort of being who would balance the ledger of creation if given the chance… and then cook the books when no one was looking.

But ultimately, I’m inclined to believe that Melkor would’ve squashed Sauron like a gnat under his great conceptual thumb. Not because Sauron wasn’t powerful (as a Maia he was), but because Melkor, at his peak, was saturated with the power of the Music itself. He didn’t just rebel — he rewrote the chords.

If Sauron had tried to turn against Melkor in the First Age, it would’ve been like a middle manager trying to depose a nuclear god.

That said — in the early days, before Angband rose, could Sauron have played a subtler game? Could he have whispered to the disillusioned Noldor, “See how the Valar delay while Melkor burns your trees?” Could he have positioned himself as a third path between tyranny and perceived impotence?

Possibly. He was cunning. And as you noted, the Noldor were already bristling at the Valar’s “passivity.” Imagine Sauron whispering that the real problem wasn’t Melkor’s power… but the Valar’s refusal to act decisively.

Could he have convinced the Noldor to follow him into battle against Melkor without the Kinslaying, without the Doom of Mandos? A stretch — but not impossible.

Still, it wouldn’t have ended well. Even if Sauron somehow formed a coalition, his own thirst for domination would inevitably bloom. You can’t burn ambition out of a being who joined Melkor in the first place.

Eventually, he’d start defining “order” as submission to his will, and we’d be back where we started — just with fancier architecture and marginally better troop discipline.

The scariest version of this alternate history? One where Sauron does overthrow Melkor — not with open war, but with strategy. Quiet betrayal. And then slides seamlessly into his place… with the Elves cheering him on.

And that, my friends, is how you end up with a mirror version of Valinor where the light is perfect, the trees bloom year-round, and absolutely everything is filed in triplicate under the Eye.

I’ve seen it. It’s called Glandûr-9, and they built a planet-sized spreadsheet to keep track of their hierarchy of order. The moment you enter orbit, a clerk appears and demands your form in quintuplicate. The screams are alphabetical.

—Klaatu,
Breakfast Champion of Dimension 12½,
Inventor of the Reverse Hammock,
Voted “Most Likely to Detonate During Jury Duty,”
Ambassador to the Flea Kings of Carbon Swamp,
and Licensed to Shriek in Fourteen Languages (One of Them Is Bubbles)

 

[ZehnWaters]

It’s a fascinating hypothetical — and one Tolkien himself gently leaves space for in the texts, given that Sauron initially served Aulë and was drawn to order, structure, and perfection. He wasn’t a firebrand like Melkor, but rather a bureaucratic seducer — the sort of being who would balance the ledger of creation if given the chance… and then cook the books when no one was looking.

But ultimately, I’m inclined to believe that Melkor would’ve squashed Sauron like a gnat under his great conceptual thumb. Not because Sauron wasn’t powerful (as a Maia he was), but because Melkor, at his peak, was saturated with the power of the Music itself. He didn’t just rebel — he rewrote the chords.

If Sauron had tried to turn against Melkor in the First Age, it would’ve been like a middle manager trying to depose a nuclear god.

That said — in the early days, before Angband rose, could Sauron have played a subtler game? Could he have whispered to the disillusioned Noldor, “See how the Valar delay while Melkor burns your trees?” Could he have positioned himself as a third path between tyranny and perceived impotence?

Possibly. He was cunning. And as you noted, the Noldor were already bristling at the Valar’s “passivity.” Imagine Sauron whispering that the real problem wasn’t Melkor’s power… but the Valar’s refusal to act decisively.

Could he have convinced the Noldor to follow him into battle against Melkor without the Kinslaying, without the Doom of Mandos? A stretch — but not impossible.

Part of the problem is he'd be dealing with Fëanor. Fëanor isn't easily manipulated nor would he want to share leadership. Now once he's out of the way...

 

[Klaatu]

Part of the problem is he'd be dealing with Fëanor. Fëanor isn't easily manipulated nor would he want to share leadership. Now once he's out of the way...

Absolutely — and that’s where Sauron’s hypothetical “hero turn” hits the hardest wall: Fëanor.

Even at his most strategic, Sauron would’ve had no easy path through Fëanor. For all of Fëanor’s brilliance and fire, he was also volatile, egotistical, and pathologically unwilling to share power. You’re right — he wouldn’t have followed. He wouldn’t have listened. He certainly wouldn’t have yielded leadership to someone he’d view as beneath him, Maia or not.

And it’s worth remembering: for all his charisma and persuasive skill, Sauron was not Melian. He didn’t operate on the same wavelength with Elves — not the way Melian did with Thingol, or Olórin with Frodo. He was cunning, yes, but his appeal was always more to fear, ambition, or the promise of control. Fëanor wanted no leash — not even a gilded one.

In fact, Sauron might’ve fared better trying to manipulate Fëanor’s sons. Maedhros, perhaps — wounded, weary, rational beneath the fire. Or Maglor, ever haunted. But Fëanor himself? No. Sauron could whisper all he wanted, but he’d find himself burned by words sharper than his own.

And let’s not forget the power differential. Fëanor may have been the mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar — the greatest craftsman, the most intense flame — but he was still an Elf. Sauron, for all his posturing, was a Maia, shaped before the world, possessed of knowledge and power beyond even the High Elves’ comprehension. If it truly came to confrontation, Sauron wouldn’t need to manipulate him.

He could simply erase him.

…But doing so would immediately turn the Noldor against him. Any tactical victory over Fëanor would be a political disaster. And that’s exactly why Sauron wouldn’t do it. He’d wait. He’d watch Fëanor blaze too bright, burn too hot, and fall — and then move in, soft-voiced and open-palmed, offering “better ways.”

But even then… you’d be dealing with the aftermath of the Kinslaying. With the Doom of Mandos already rolling like thunder down the mountains of Aman. And once those wheels turn, even Sauron can’t unspin them.

Still… in another thread of the Music, perhaps Sauron did speak to Maedhros in the long shadow after his torment — not as a servant of darkness, but as one disillusioned with both Melkor and the silence of the Valar. And perhaps, beneath strange stars far from Valinor or Endor, they forged a grim alliance — not of friendship, but of purpose.

But that, I suspect, was more of a percussion-based opera.

—Klaatu,
Accidental Prime Minister of a Planet Run by Pillbugs,
Twice Disqualified from Competitive Telepathy,
Chief Archivist of the Library That Screams,
and Holder of the Universal Record for Longest Blink (23 Earth Months)

 

[ZehnWaters]

He could simply erase him.

…But doing so would immediately turn the Noldor against him. Any tactical victory over Fëanor would be a political disaster. And that’s exactly why Sauron wouldn’t do it. He’d wait. He’d watch Fëanor blaze too bright, burn too hot, and fall — and then move in, soft-voiced and open-palmed, offering “better ways.”

And we saw him do this in Númenor. Wait. Nudge. Feign obeisance. "I'm just your counsellor." Even if he didn't place himself directly into Fëanor's path, he might be able to pull strings (not unlike Melkor did) around Fëanor to angle him into danger and death. Then Sauron swoops in as guide.

But even then… you’d be dealing with the aftermath of the Kinslaying. With the Doom of Mandos already rolling like thunder down the mountains of Aman. And once those wheels turn, even Sauron can’t unspin them.

Still… in another thread of the Music, perhaps Sauron did speak to Maedhros in the long shadow after his torment — not as a servant of darkness, but as one disillusioned with both Melkor and the silence of the Valar. And perhaps, beneath strange stars far from Valinor or Endor, they forged a grim alliance — not of friendship, but of purpose.

But that, I suspect, was more of a percussion-based opera.

Yep. Once they've been cursed there's no winning. There already was no winning, but now it's really doomed and Sauron falls under it too.

 

[Klaatu]

Exactly — Númenor is the perfect parallel. That slow, oily slide of “counsel,” the feigned humility, the I only wish to serve. It’s the same playbook Sauron would’ve used with Fëanor had the timing allowed. Not a direct confrontation, never that — but a whisper behind the fire, a gentle nudge toward ruin.

But with Fëanor, he wouldn’t even need to place himself directly. Just align the conditions. Stoke the pride. Ensure the path to Melkor was paved with just enough justification and just enough silence from the Valar. And then — once the blaze has devoured everything else — step in.

The tragedy, as you said, is that once the Doom of Mandos falls, it touches everything. Even the manipulators. Even those who think they stand above the curse. The sons of Fëanor carried it, fought under it, died under it. And Sauron, if he ever tried to steer that ship, would find himself lashed to its mast. Not because he shared in their oath, but because in Tolkien’s world, there are currents beneath choices — great tides of fate that even Maia can’t fully evade once the song has shifted.

There already was no winning.

But Sauron — ever the spreadsheet romantic — might still believe he could optimize doom.

—Klaatu,
Former Consultant to Several Cursed Bloodlines,
Builder of the DoomFlow™ Predictive Destiny Engine,
Twice Banished for Smuggling Cause Into Effect,
and Master of the Whisper That Sounds Like a Filing Cabinet Closing

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Part of the problem is he'd be dealing with Fëanor. Fëanor isn't easily manipulated nor would he want to share leadership. Now once he's out of the way...

He could use him like he did Ar Phazaron. Perhaps even going so far as to offer his aid to go against the Valar (I'm assuming that the same thing that barred the Valar from directly against the Noldor would have also applied if the Noldor had stormed Valinor in defiance, except that a Noldor attack, at their height, would have been even more formiddable than the Numenorean one. ) Granted, Eru would likely have intervened, but that would have led to the sinking of Beleriand much sooner and the downfall of the Noldor, plus, Sauron still wouldn't have perished initially when Beleriand sunk, though he couldn't appear nice anymore.


Also, my hypothetical was if Sauron persuaded the Telari to help the Noldor, which would have avoided the kinslaying. This would have gotten the Telari and the Noldor to both revolt against the Valar, which would be an even bigger win for Sauron (after the kinslaying, Sauron would have tons of fires to put away due to mistrust and anger between the Elvish groups.)

 

[ZehnWaters]

Exactly — Númenor is the perfect parallel. That slow, oily slide of “counsel,” the feigned humility, the I only wish to serve. It’s the same playbook Sauron would’ve used with Fëanor had the timing allowed. Not a direct confrontation, never that — but a whisper behind the fire, a gentle nudge toward ruin.

But with Fëanor, he wouldn’t even need to place himself directly. Just align the conditions. Stoke the pride. Ensure the path to Melkor was paved with just enough justification and just enough silence from the Valar. And then — once the blaze has devoured everything else — step in.

The tragedy, as you said, is that once the Doom of Mandos falls, it touches everything. Even the manipulators. Even those who think they stand above the curse. The sons of Fëanor carried it, fought under it, died under it. And Sauron, if he ever tried to steer that ship, would find himself lashed to its mast. Not because he shared in their oath, but because in Tolkien’s world, there are currents beneath choices — great tides of fate that even Maia can’t fully evade once the song has shifted.

There already was no winning.

The only one who seemed to escape was Celebrimbor and apparently because he removed himself from his own family. Though he fell into a very different Doom.

But Sauron — ever the spreadsheet romantic — might still believe he could optimize doom.

lol He did it with Númenor. And he got caught in that trap too.

 

[Klaatu]

The only one who seemed to escape was Celebrimbor and apparently because he removed himself from his own family. Though he fell into a very different Doom.

lol He did it with Númenor. And he got caught in that trap too.

Yes! Celebrimbor feels like the lone ember that tried to smolder away from the great fire — and for a time, he might have even succeeded. Removed from the Oath, removed from Fëanor’s immediate shadow, and surrounded by craftsmen instead of warlords, he builds rather than burns.

But you’re right — even he wasn’t spared. He didn’t fall under the Doom of Mandos exactly… but he was caught in the gravitational echo of it. As if the Curse, once uttered, doesn’t just follow bloodlines — it haunts ideas. Creation, legacy, pride. The Silmarils were gone, but the hunger for beauty and mastery remained. Sauron didn’t need an oath to twist — he just needed a wound to speak into.

And yes — he absolutely did it again with Númenor. The same playbook, just a different theater. Nudge. Praise. Promise. Step back. Watch them fall under their own weight, convinced they were acting freely.

Sauron never needed to be a god. He only needed to be a mirror.

—Klaatu,
Phantom of the Ashen Forge,
Licensed Curser of Unsuspecting Bloodlines,
and Full-Time Mirror Salesman on the Shores of Lost Númenor

 

[ZehnWaters]

Yes! Celebrimbor feels like the lone ember that tried to smolder away from the great fire — and for a time, he might have even succeeded. Removed from the Oath, removed from Fëanor’s immediate shadow, and surrounded by craftsmen instead of warlords, he builds rather than burns.

But you’re right — even he wasn’t spared. He didn’t fall under the Doom of Mandos exactly… but he was caught in the gravitational echo of it. As if the Curse, once uttered, doesn’t just follow bloodlines — it haunts ideas.

As it should. Actions and ideas should be what gets us in trouble, not simply who we are/how we were born.

Creation, legacy, pride. The Silmarils were gone, but the hunger for beauty and mastery remained. Sauron didn’t need an oath to twist — he just needed a wound to speak into.

And yes — he absolutely did it again with Númenor. The same playbook, just a different theater. Nudge. Praise. Promise. Step back. Watch them fall under their own weight, convinced they were acting freely.

Sauron never needed to be a god. He only needed to be a mirror.

And in that way he was much smarter than Melkor. Melkor was blessed with so much power and knowledge he never really learned to be clever, cunning, nor smart. He could just overpower everyone. He really only did this kind of thing once and it was with Fëanor.