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PJ defences...debunked.

Re the "talking moth" scene: in the book, G. is rescued by an eagle sent by Radagast to Orthanc to bear messages to the two ostensibly allied members of the White Council. Since there was no Radagast and Gandalf goes willingly to Orthanc (he wasn't "sent for" by Saruman), there had to be some mechanism by which an eagle comes to his rescue. The "moth" I suppose represented the Wizard's involvment with the natural world and his ability to communicate with it via its many species. In effect, Jackson combined the characters of Gandalf and Radagast as he had combined the characters of Arwen and Glorfindel. But I had no problem with the scene given the fact that there simply was no other way to bring about Gandalf's rescue by the eagle since Jackson had "cut out" the other Wizard.
 
Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
But I had no problem with the scene given the fact that there simply was no other way to bring about Gandalf's rescue by the eagle since Jackson had "cut out" the other Wizard.
I didn't get this at the time, and I still don't get it. Why should it be more likely for a moth to happen to fly to the great height of the top of Orthanc, than for an eagle to be up there?
I just don't see the need for an intermediary, and, if there had to be one I can't think of anything more unlikely, and more ludicrous, than that mini pterodactyl!
 
Originally posted by joxy
I didn't get this at the time, and I still don't get it. Why should it be more likely for a moth to happen to fly to the great height of the top of Orthanc, than for an eagle to be up there?
I just don't see the need for an intermediary, and, if there had to be one I can't think of anything more unlikely, and more ludicrous, than that mini pterodactyl!
The problem with simply having an eagle "appear" is that obviously Gandalf is waiting for one and throws himself off the roof of Orthanc with the obvious belief that an eagle will be there to bear him away from his captivity. If the eagle were to just "appear", then there would have to be all sorts of interaction between Gandalf and the eagle in order for the bird to know to come close enough to carry him away. And that, of course, wouldn't work since Saruman was also present on the roof at the time! At least with the moth (whose presence would not have been noted by Saruman and his minions), it is understandable that Gandalf is awaiting an eagle rescuer and that the eagle is also aware that his job will be to perform the rescue. Otherwise, the whole thing becomes extremely clumsy - or at least clumsier than it was.
 
Originally posted by joxy
I've no real problem with people assigning different degrees of disapproval to different scenes!

That's exactly what I'm saying...don't think I expressed it clearly before. Most of the FOTR mis-steps I'm willing to forgive (Mrs. M said this somewhere) because the good outweighs it. The council of Elrond, though, is my personal vote for most ridiculous scene.

Liv's TTT attire...I know this will cause almost everyone to roll their eyes...but her dresses were approaching see-through and she wasn't wearing a bra. Pretty disrespectful to the sisterhood she represents...stop rolling your eyes people!!! ;) :p

ANYWAY, what I loved about the moth is another instance of a small creature, mostly ignored, makes a big difference. And it was so cute.:D Not to mention it's part of one of the most breath-taking shots in the movie...up one side of Orthanc and back down the other to an orc forging a sword.
 
Calling all FAD's

OHHHHH Thor........in! I'm BACK!!!!! I hope you had a good 2003 thus far, because it looks like you havent changed and your setting yourself up for a miserable Holiday season. These are suppossed to be happy times! I recommend you go see Elf and have some cheer thrown your way.

I wanted to slowly get back in the 'cyber' swing of things and plan to do that (i.e I wont be on the boards daily until the movie is released) but I have to jump in hear and speak for our FADNESS. Are you guys seriously debating the 'talking moth'? I thought we were over the (in NPW's words) 'wrong color of the Nazgul's horses. Apparantly not. I thought the moth did a wonderful job and I dont seem to recall him (was it a him or her?) possessing a speaking part. Oh well, I look foward to doing battle in the ensuing months. I will need to fill out the forums and see what kind of old/new FAD's I have to work with. Have you seen Foe-Hammer? I need to talk to that guy. YOu and Mrs. Maggot havent gotten married to each other over the summer have you? You seem aweful close in your rhetoric.

Hope all is well and I am sure I will be talking to you soon. When is the date of the TT EE release?

Love and kisses- Markrob (Pretty sure founder if not at least annoiter of FADNESS) :D
 
Guess who's back back back/back again gen gen..

Welcome back! Foehammer disappeared, probably the victim of a banning. I thought you were banned too. Was it only a temporary ban?

(Certainly hopes that one lilhobo isn't going to make another appearance...) :p ;)
 
Originally posted by markrob
I thought the moth did a wonderful job....
Welcome (back?) certainly, but are we to expect postings with the profundity of this one?:eek:
 
Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
that, of course, wouldn't work since Saruman was also present on the roof at the time!
Is Saruman there all the time, including when the moth appears?
Of course, he shouldn't be there at all, at any time. Without him the eagle could appear just as easily as the moth does, and the whole silly load of nonsense would be avoided. As usual, PJ lets himself in for trouble by getting things wrong in the first place.
 
Re: Calling all FAD's

Originally posted by markrob
OHHHHH Thor........in! I'm BACK!!!!! I hope you had a good 2003 thus far, because it looks like you havent changed and your setting yourself up for a miserable Holiday season. These are suppossed to be happy times! I recommend you go see Elf and have some cheer thrown your way.
MARKROB!!!! Oh happy times are here again!!! My old nemesis! how the heck are you?

Yes, Maggot and I are holding the purist torch high but are not married. Surely, markrob, you can't come here supporting such dreck as TTT. FoTR, i could understand your FADness, but TTT? Surely you can't stoop that low!

Bring back Foe-hammer...and Harad if at all possible! Then bring on Talimon and we shall have a battle that rivals Pelennor fields!!

:)
 
Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
The problem with simply having an eagle "appear" is that obviously Gandalf is waiting for one and throws himself off the roof of Orthanc with the obvious belief that an eagle will be there to bear him away from his captivity. If the eagle were to just "appear", then there would have to be all sorts of interaction between Gandalf and the eagle in order for the bird to know to come close enough to carry him away. And that, of course, wouldn't work since Saruman was also present on the roof at the time! At least with the moth (whose presence would not have been noted by Saruman and his minions), it is understandable that Gandalf is awaiting an eagle rescuer and that the eagle is also aware that his job will be to perform the rescue. Otherwise, the whole thing becomes extremely clumsy - or at least clumsier than it was.
I have to say that I am with joxy on this one. The eagle could have been sent by Galadriel as easily as Radagast. And considering PJ's knack for making things up and b-a-s-t-ardizing the rest, this little thing could have been accepted, plus we could have seen a talking eagle. PJ could have made it dramatic by having Saruman come on the tower as Gandalf and Gwahir are talking and make a narrow escape. Non-tolkien audiences wouldn't have known the difference. Having a moth, of all creatures, appear out of nowhere is just foolish. How far exactly were the great eagles? Have you ever seen a moth fly? Frodo could have gotten to the cracks of doom before the moth got his message to anyone never mind mountain eagles.
 
Originally posted by Thorin
Having a moth, of all creatures, appear out of nowhere is just foolish. How far exactly were the great eagles? Have you ever seen a moth fly? Frodo could have gotten to the cracks of doom before the moth got his message to anyone never mind mountain eagles.

Yes, the moth probably wouldn't have gotten further up the tower than a brightly lit window to repeatedly smash it's head against...:p
But really, moths are everywhere in the night sky! Gandalf was up there for quite a while, long enough for the moth to tell a bigger friend. A smart eagle wouldn't by choice cruise within 50 miles of Orthanc (Aragorn talks of the brooding evil that emits from it). Also, which animal would more likely get Saruman's attention that Gandalf has sent out an SOS escape message!!!

My big problem with that scene is how the heck does Gandalf get his staff back?!? Saruman should have been weilding both when he was about to destroy G, and then G could have grabbed it as he jumped off the tower.......
 
Ah, my dear Markrob. I'm afraid that you and I have only had a few moments of discourse, as it were. However, you might say that we are all "married" to one another on our various "sides" of the issue although there are quite a number who fall between the two sides seeing both the good and the bad in the films and accepting one while rejecting the other.

Again (just in case you might have missed it) I state my case. I liked FOTR as a fantasy film but in no way could it be considered an adaptation of Tolkien's LOTR. Jackson went off in his own direction which - for the first film at least - was not all that bad and, in fact, from time to time was positively good! However, in the second film, Mr. Jackson's fevered imagination and super ego got the better of his good sense and he strayed far, far into silliness, poor plotting and worse execution. Now we have to see if ROTK can survive TTT and return to the level of FOTR.

I believe, however, that there is simply too much ground to cover in ROTK if one adds in Jackson's own intention of making a huge spectacle of the Battle of the Pelannor (and maybe even the Battle before the Black Gates). Remember, after all, Jackson's decision to waste time with warg riders, Aragorn over the cliff and the interminable battle of Helm's Deep knowing full well what he would have to sacrifice in the narrative flow of the story in order to do so. Indeed, it was apparently so bad that he is already admitting that Saruman will be ignored in the theatre version of ROTK and the conclusion of that thread will have to wait for the DVD.
 
Originally posted by joxy
Welcome (back?) certainly, but are we to expect postings with the profundity of this one?:eek:

You must not recognize a smart ass when you read what one has wrote.

No, no, never banned, just that small thing that gets in the way called life. However, I love jousting with NPW's this time of year and happen to love LoTR in any way I can a tasting of it. I am sure Foe was not banned either. Carry on with your debate and I'll weigh in with a dose of reality when the time is right.

Thorin, can you answer my question when the EE comes out?

Thanks
 
What Happened - and Why...

Many of the film threads - both those which defend and those which criticize - ask the same questions: what happened and why? However, it wasn’t until someone mentioned Jackson’s fixation with the character Lurtz in FOTR that the answer came to me. The poster asked why Jackson put so much time and energy into the character and I realized that Lurtz was an insight into what went wrong in these films.

It is the film director’s responsibility to take the written word and translate it into a visual medium. A good director can take a fair to mediocre book and make of it a decent, even good film. And, of course, he can make a good or great book into a classic of the medium. Naturally, even the best director has his flops but there are certain qualities that a director must possess in order to successfully translate his “book” into film.

Firstly, he must respect his source material. A film made from a book which the director does not respect is almost immediately obvious to the audience. This sort of thing has nothing whatsoever to do with money and everything to do with imagination, “vision” and heart. How many so-called “B” movies are better cinema than huge bloated “extravaganzas” and who would not choose “Laura” over “Cleopatra” or “Treasure of the Sierra Madre” over mindless wide-screen “shoot-em-ups” with their dozens of explosions and idiotic car chases?

Secondly, the director must be willing to work within his story. This means that he must be able to determine what should be eliminated either for time consideration or because it complicates the plot to the point of chaos, what should be relegated to the background as unnecessary to the “flow” of the story and what must be highlighted in order to make the film “work”. This ability to take the written word and “see” it in film is a gift bestowed upon very few. Those who do have it are able to “print” on our minds memories which never leave us.

However, one thing a director should never do is attempt to become a “co-creator” with the writer(s) unless, of course, the story is his! When a director decides that his “book” needs more than translation or he gets the yen to do some “rewriting” himself, he runs the risk of being unsuccessful not only as an author but as a director and this is what happened to Peter Jackson in LOTR. At some point in the process of bringing LOTR to the screen Mr. Jackson decided that he wanted to become a “co-creator” of the story with Professor Tolkien and when that happened, it was the end of any hope that these films would become what Jackson himself probably wanted: the definitive film version of the book.

For what I ask was all the “rewriting” of characters but Jackson’s attempt to co-create the story? It is one thing to delete a portion of the tale for time constraints or to “telescope” the passage of years between the time Frodo inherits the Ring and the beginning of the Quest or even to “combine” characters in order to avoid excessive plot complications, but when you fundamentally change the characters - who they are, what they think, their motivations, their very essence – you no longer have “translation” but in fact, “creation”. And nowhere is this more truly revealed than in the character of Lurtz, Jackson’s own invention! Jackson absolutely fixates on him and does so in the “truest” of the films - FOTR.

Now, one of the things we know from Tolkien is that the orcs were very much anonymous – a “hive” culture very different from any of the free peoples of Middle-earth. Indeed, we only learn the name of a very few orcs in the entire book and interestingly enough, one of those is the leader of Saruman’s Urak-hai: Ugluk. Why, if Tolkien had already provided a name for Saruman’s lead orc, was it necessary for Jackson to choose an entirely different name? Why did Jackson simply not name his character “Ugluk” and thereby maintain at least the appearance of faithfulness to the book? The reason, I believe is that Jackson wanted his own character in the film rather than to simply re-develop Tolkien’s.

Consider the difference in the fate of the two orcs: Tolkien’s survives the attack at Parth Galen and leads the troop of orcs with their hobbit captives across Rohan where he eventually is slain by Eomer in the battle before Fangorn. There is nothing to suppose that Ugluk personally killed Boromir although certainly he may have had a hand in that action. On the other hand, Lurtz not only shoots the arrows that kill Boromir, but he engages in a battle to the death with Jackson’s “new” hero of the story, Aragorn and almost kills him although he himself is killed in the encounter. Thus does Jackson raise Lurtz from a mere factotum of Saruman, another orc among the many being bred in Orthanc, to almost “heroic” stature.

It is this care and excessive prominence and screen time given to a character which is purely Jackson’s invention that reinforce my belief that Jackson desired not merely to “film” J. R. R. Tolkien’s LOTR, but to in effect write the story that appears on the screen under the rather disingenuous disclaimer that it is “based” upon the book of that title.
 
Originally posted by simbelmyne
My big problem with that scene is how the heck does Gandalf get his staff back?!? Saruman should have been weilding both when he was about to destroy G, and then G could have grabbed it as he jumped off the tower.......
After this point in the movie doesn't he get a new staff?

The EE that I simply cannot wait for is coming out the 18th of November. 8 more days! :)

*dances with anticipation*
 
Originally posted by Gandalf White
After this point in the movie doesn't he get a new staff?

Not until he dances the death dance with the Balrog (and gets the staff that looks like it came off a picket fence). Until then, he sports the one that S took from him.
 
Originally posted by simbelmyne
Not until he dances the death dance with the Balrog (and gets the staff that looks like it came off a picket fence). Until then, he sports the one that S took from him.

No, they are different.
When Gandalf battles the evil wizard, Gandalf's staff is taken from him and he is therefore defeated. Gandalf is placed atop a large column until rescued by the giant bird. Once united with Frodo again, however, Gandalf's staff is by his side. [Gandalf doesn't regain his staff, he has two different staffs. The branches on the tip of the first one are almost straight and there's a spot for his pipe to fit. On the second one the branches on the tip are bent to one side. Both can be seen in pre-release pictures.]
Found at www.movie-mistakes.com
 
Originally posted by markrob
You must not recognize a smart ass when you read what one has wrote.
Could we have a translaion of that sentence into standard (or even US;)) English?
 

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