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PJ defences...debunked.

Its quite simple really. A + B = C

Me, who in this case is A, made a smart ass/ sarcastic comment
You, in this case B, can't comprehend a smart ass remark when you see one

So in review:

A: Me-smart ass
B: duh??? (you)
= C dumb ass (you again)

You got a bonus lesson, simple English and Math all at the same time.

Cheerio! :p
 
Originally posted by simbelmyne
Chock up one for FADs...:D
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'm not a fad, I'm a LotWLtMJNAA. ;)

Markrob:

Your equation=rude :rolleyes: Are you sure you weren't banned for a while?
 
Originally posted by markrob
Its quite simple really. A + B = C....You got a bonus lesson, simple English and Math all at the same time.
Well, half simple, so far.
"Smart ass" was new to me: you tell me that translates to "sarcastic": OK.
But "one has wrote"? Translation awaited.
And who can't recognise sarcasm?
My original comment was that your remark about the moth was a "profundity". Was my comment sarcastic, or what?

(NB. A phrase and a sentence above, starting with conjunctions.)
 
Originally posted by Gandalf White
Markrob:

Your equation=rude :rolleyes: Are you sure you weren't banned for a while?
Welcome to the world of the aggressive FADs, GW. That's just markrob's style. you just ignore him and he goes away.;) guys like markrob, Foe-hammer and the late Harad always walked the line between the Webmasters good and bad side. They are the rebels without a cause (and clue). but life wouldn't be the same without them.

I can't even fathom what would have happened if those guys were there when all the GoP and GoR controversy was going on....yikes!
 
Still, one wonders what sort of defense anyone will be able to make for Jackson if in fact he leaves Saruman out of ROTK! Not only will it leave a very large hole insofar as a prior plot thread is concerned, but an important plot thread needed in ROTK - Aragorn's taking of the Paths of the Dead - arises from the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman. If this is just "ignored" in ROTK, how much time will Jackson have to spend explaining that particular thread to the audience? Indeed, how will he explain it at all??

I may be wrong, but given the amount of time Jackson has already admitted will be spent on battle sequences and the obvious requirement of the Ring plot thread, one wonders just how he is going to do everything he has to do in the third film for it to make any kind of sense. Anyway, as disappointing as it will doubtless be, it will be interesting to see Jackson dancing around his prior changes.
 
Originally posted by Gandalf White
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'm not a fad, I'm a LotWLtMJNAA. ;)

Gee, I can't imagine why 'FAD' would have stuck in my mind more than this anacronym!!!:p talk about needing a translator...
 
Yes, and I'm not a purist but a PDJWFttB (Person Disappointed Jackson Wasn't Faithful to the Book). :p
 
Thanks Thorin, although your comments have a slight hint of "smartassness" (sarcasm for you Joxy) I feel you truely enjoy debating with the likes of us FAD's. Besides, a little dose of reality keeps you 'fanatic purist' on the sane side of the spectrum. I'll take your remarks as a complement, as well I hope you would take mine the same out of respect for each others views. I will check back more after I watch the EE version next week. I hope some more cool stuff is included and even more stuff to further infuriate the Jackson haters.

Hail to Thorin!, PEACEKEEPER OF THE EVER ON GOING BATTLES OF THE FAD'S (realist) VS THE PURIST (thinks Middle Earth is real).
 
Originally posted by Thorin
Welcome to the world of the aggressive FADs, GW.

More like 'welcome back.' ;) I remember Foehammer going at it tooth and claw. :p Aggressive purists, while rare, seem to be even more obnoxious, though. ;) *cough*lilhobo*cough*

I really don't know what to say about this whole Saruman deal. Not only would Jackson have to work around problems arising from this (and thus the greater chance of a 'mess'), as MM said, but he will also leave the general public 'hanging.' As a supposed director, PJ should know better than this.

Yes, and I'm not a purist but a PDJWFttB (Person Disappointed Jackson Wasn't Faithful to the Book).
I think you left off the last part! PDJWFttBaTDtM (Person disappointed Jackson Wasn't Faithful to the Book and Therefore Dislike the Movies). ;)

That would make me a PDJWFttBBSLtM. Surely you can figure that out simbelmyne! :p ;)

markrob: Your definitions must be off, otherwise I'm a purist...:eek:
 
"Middle-earth" may not be real, but I can personally testify that the book which Mr. Jackson insisted he wished to bring to the screen is indeed "real".

The problem with most (not all) FADs is that they keep getting the point confused. The argument put forth by purists is that Jackson was unfaithful to the book virtually from the beginning and has continued to deviate further and further from his "source material". To this, most FADs counter with the admission that, yes, this is true - but the films "rock". So, in fact, you admit that Jackson was not faithful to the book, but you like what he did so it's okay!

Purists, on the other hand, don't find it "okay". Some of us like the films as fantasy adventure works which bear a superficial resemblance to Tolkien's story while others are so disappointed with what should have been the definitive film version of Tolkien's LOTR that we find no pleasure in the films at all. But whichever the case may be, our "purist" arguments are solely about how Jackson has failed to be faithful to his source, something which most FADs are obliged to concede.

Therefore, what is left to be disputed accept that which is entirely subjective: did or didn't the individual like the films? And how can that point be disputed? I cannot convince someone to dislike what they like nor can they convince me to like what I do not like. Therefore, it would seem that the ongoing "Purist" v. FAD debate is rather sterile to say the least.
 
Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
....that which is entirely subjective: did or didn't the individual like the films? And how can that point be disputed? I cannot convince someone to dislike what they like nor can they convince me to like what I do not like. Therefore, it would seem that the ongoing "Purist" v. FAD debate is rather sterile to say the least.
People can change their minds though, about what they like and dislike. I suggest that it is perfectly possible, and certainly desirable, that people would have second, or many more, thoughts on the matter, and change their assessments with regard to like or dislike. We may not be able to convince them - we might not want to do that - but we can offer ideas leading to a re-think, and surely that brings life back into the debate.
I can well imagine people seeing the films once or twice in the cinema, being carried away by the spectacle, and deciding they "liked" what they saw, but then reading here details they had missed, of the quality of both adaptation and cinematography, maybe seeing the films yet again, and modifying their degree of "liking".
It can work the other way: when I first saw the falling staircase scene I disliked it both as nonsense in regard to the story and as an interruption in the flow of the film, but after reading defences of it, and seeing it again, I found I could honestly say I was beginning, as in Fangorn Forest, to "like" it - though I would have preferred it to be in a separate film!
 
I would say that the most "purists" will be able to achieve is to have film admirers understand that these films are not representative of the book but of Mr. Jackson's own peculiar "version" of a story originally presented by J. R. R. Tolkien. If we do that, we have succeeded in my opinion. Now this doesn't mean that they will not continue to like and enjoy the films, only that they will know that if they really want to know about the original story, they will have to forget the films and access the book. I really cannot see us accomplishing much more than that nor, in my opinion, should we be attempting to make film lovers into film haters.

Now, of course, it is true that one may bring up such points that those who have uncritically accepted these films as LOTR will think again about their assessment - and even begin to look at the films with a more critical eye - but I certainly don't want to ruin anyone's fun - with the possible exception of Mr. Jackson and his screenwriters', that is!

Nor is that the only "service" we provide. If in fact Jackson's own words are true (and that is always "up for grabs!"), we aren't going to see the completion of the Saruman theme until the EE version of ROTK is released which will probably be about a year after the film's release if the other films are anything to go by. If that is indeed so, then it is wise to warn potential viewers not to be expecting Christopher Lee and Brad whoever (can't remember his name) or the solution of that plot thread in ROTK. Think of all the disappointment we can spare the poor souls. Of course, if Jackson is not being truthful, well their little hearts will simply overflow with joy to find that we were wrong, so either way we're ahead of the game!
 
So, in fact, you admit that Jackson was not faithful to the book, but you like what he did so it's okay!
Hey now! Unfair conclusion! Link up the logic between "Admitting PJ was not faithful" + "liking the movies" = "it's alright that PJ slaughtered the books." Legally, of course, it was. If you think it doesn't matter to me, you're wrong. Give me some time to think, and I'll come up with how I can like both.

Therefore, what is left to be disputed accept that which is entirely subjective: did or didn't the individual like the films? And how can that point be disputed? I cannot convince someone to dislike what they like nor can they convince me to like what I do not like. Therefore, it would seem that the ongoing "Purist" v. FAD debate is rather sterile to say the least.
Yes, it has been for quite some time now. Sometimes it gets me so bored I have to take a weeks break or so. Oh well, just can't stay away longer than that.

The problem with most (not all) FADs is that they keep getting the point confused.
What I try to argue is that in and of themselves the movies are good. (Yes, I know you'll disagree, especially with TTT.) I do not try to argue that PJ is justified or was right in disregarding his source material.
 
Not yourself but others have said in the past in other threads that we purists should accept whatever Jackson has done to the story simply because he has produced "superior" films as a result. I realize, of course, that you have never made that demand and that's why I did not say "all" when I made the statement. We have been told that we should be "grateful" to Jackson and many have taken offense that we are at all critical of the films. But, again, this is not you. Indeed, you seem to occupy a position in "no man's land" between the two camps which must be, at times, rather uncomfortable. :p
 
Ah, I had mistaken the intent of that post then.

The middle ground is more 'interesting' than 'uncomfortable,' although it does have the potential to be the latter. I'm surprised there aren't more holding to this POV. Blue Wizard and Aragil would be the closest, although I think simbelmyne would like to accept this viewpoint although he/she :confused: doesn't want to admit it. ;)
 
From time to time I am inclined to believe that the subject of the discourse becomes confused. One poster was very much put out at criticisms of Jackson on this particular site (Tv.J) and wanted to know why were were always "comparing" the Director to the Author! Others seem to believe that any criticism of the films however instructive, constructive or warranted, is somehow heretical and therefore out of place! Then there are those who continually demand that the films be accepted as Jackson's version (which, of course, they are and therefore must be accepted as such) but still demand that there be no criticisms of whatever failures they may contain quite apart from the matter of the book. This latter is somewhat silly since no film, however good, is without its faults and any really good critic will point them out no matter how much he or she enjoyed the film as a whole!

To my mind, the combatants break down to the following categories:

1. Those who absolutely love the films, think that they "rock" and will hear no criticism of them or Jackson. To these people, whatever changes Jackson made have improved the films over the book and his departure from Tolkien was at all times and in all instances not only necessary but infinitely superior to whatever would have happened had he remained faithful to his source.

2. Those who agree that Jackson has deviated from the book and regret that he has done so even though many of his "inventions" made the films more interesting than they otherwise might have been. These people admit to the superiority of the book as story, but do not believe that faithfulness to it would necessarily have resulted in superior films. They are willing to accept the films as somewhat flawed but nonetheless excellent translations of Tolkien's LOTR to film and that they represent probably the best that could have been done under the present circumstances.

3. Those who have separated the films from the book believing that Jackson virtually from the beginning was only using the book as a framework for his own story. They like the films - although they accept criticisms of their lapses - and the book, but they don't confuse the two. They also find no problem with Jackson's deviations since they do not believe that it matters.

4. Those who separate the films from the book but whose disappointment is such that their enjoyment of the films is lessened. Furthermore, the geometrically progressive nature of Jackson's changes (more in each succeeding film) make enjoyment of the films problematic; that is, they like the first one best, the second one considerably less and they are very much anxious about the third. These people believe that Jackson has not only changed the story and for the worse, but that the quality of the films is decreasing as they go along in the main because Jackson is not dealing successfully with the changes that he himself has made.

5. Those for whom the films are an anathema because they appear to be a poor conterfeit and mockery of the story on which they are ostensibly based. These folks love the book, looked forward (with trepidation, it's true) to the films, believing because of all the pre-release hoopla that they would on the whole be faithful to the book. They were expecting a "definitive" film version of LOTR and were badly disappointed. In fact, they are now of the opinion that they have "been had" and are not about to forgive Jackson for a golden opportunity wasted. They went to FOTR and most probably TTT even though they were discouraged by the first film. However the second was too much for many of them and they will probably not wish to be further disappointed by seeing the third.

So you can see that rather than "two camps" we have a considerable range of folks and probably many fall somewhere in between the above five categories. Still, it will be interesting to see where we all wind up after the release of ROTK (and then, probably, after the release of the EE of that film and the compilation of the trilogy).
 
Originally posted by Gandalf White
I think simbelmyne would like to accept this viewpoint although he/she :confused: doesn't want to admit it. ;)

Hey thanks, GW for realizing my views aren't strickly purist...more like the GW camp for FOTR and the MM/joxy camp for TTT (Or am I just in denial?) ;) If we are in camps at all....I'd like to think of TTF as one,big happy group...

I already explained, many posts ago, that I was a girl. How many guys would name themselves after a flower???:D :eek:
 
Originally posted by simbelmyne
Hey thanks, GW for realizing my views aren't strickly purist...more like the GW camp for FOTR and the MM/joxy camp for TTT (Or am I just in denial?) ;) If we are in camps at all....I'd like to think of TTF as one,big happy group...

Yup, you're in denial. ;) TTF is one big, happy group...the purists on this side of the group, and the FAD's on that, and some of us gravitating towards the middle.

Originally posted by simbelmyne
I already explained, many posts ago, that I was a girl. How many guys would name themselves after a flower???:D :eek:
It must have been many posts ago, because I missed it. My apologies. Let it suffice to say I have the worst problems judging gender here on this Forum. :eek:
 
Hey! You cannot suppose that flowers are only for "girls"! The symbol of France is (or used to be) the lily and two English houses fought to the death: the Lancastrians with their red rose and the Yorkists with their white. Tudor usurped the throne and then had the temerity to "steal" both for their badge. Nay, flowers are not only for girls albeit first name-wise, that is pretty much true.
 

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