Scrutiny of the bounty!

Ancalagon · Nov 19, 2002

I have been wondering as I have read through many of the threads in the film section, whether many of those individuals who debate the pro's and con's of the movie ever feel they have done it more of a disservice by over-scrutinising and analysing it? Has this in fact taken away from the original feeling one had when watching it?

I remember thinking it was a good movie when I first watched it, but I found the more I watched it the more I detested it. I especially disliked the characters and my lack of empathy towards them. Now sometimes I wish I had simply left it as I first did, with a warm feeling about the efforts!

Confusticated · Nov 19, 2002

Funny, I have wondered the same thing about Tolkien's books.

Ancalagon · Nov 19, 2002

Is there a special smilie one can use for a 'gasp'?

Talimon · Nov 19, 2002

Originally posted by Nóm
Funny, I have wondered the same thing about Tolkien's books.

That's partially why I don't like to discuss Tolkien too intensively. To me it has this sort of nostalgic magic that takes me somewhere. The more I try and analyze it the less magical it becomes. I try and treat PJ's movie the same way. I get lost in his world very quickly.

Leto · Nov 19, 2002

Though I have scrutinized and compared every detail of the movies and the books, I still enjoy the little things immensely. I love hearing Gandalf singing 'The road goes ever on and on' at the beginning of the movie, and Bilbo as he leaves Bag End. I love the Elves' singing in Shire in the extended version, hearing 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel'. The scene where the moth comes to Gandalf on Ortrhanc is beautiful, the music along with the whole vision. Though it is not from the book, it is still one of my favorite sequences. It shows the stark contrast between the artificial, 'industrialized', evil...and the pure simplicity of nature, which cannot be conquered. And I still well up with tears seeing Hobbiton, and Bag End, for the first time in the movie, it looks absolutely perfect. It feels like 'home'.
There are many more of these 'little things', as well. My enjoyment of them has not diminished with repeated viewings, despite my scrutiny of the many things in the movie I do not like. Just as my repeated readings of 'Lord of the Rings' has never diminished my enjoyment of it, even as I look for greater and greater detail. I come to appreciate it all the more. There are many chapters and passages that I have read many times over, for the pure enjoyment of them.

So no, paying attention to detail does not necessarily cause one to lose sight of the whole picture. Our thoughts and feelings can work on different tracks at the same time, both in critical analysis and in emotional involvement. (For the record, I find very little to criticize in the book. Sometimes I read for scrutiny, to find hints of hidden meaning or details of something overlooked...but it never has decreased my emotional, nostaligic enjoyment of the whole work.)

Ancalagon · Nov 19, 2002

Ahhh, Leto, don't misunderstand my own emotional attachments to aspects of the film.........Boromirs death is still (IMHO) a classic moment in the movie.........although the Moth..?

The problem for me was my own analysis of the film became overly critical the more I watched it. Granted, first time I cringed at a number of the moments I was presented with, but the overall beauty of the movie compensated for that. Yet, my dismay grew, the more I watched the more I disliked the bulk of the characters. Now, the more I read Tolkiens work and analyse it, the more I appreciate it, desire and thirst for it. Of course, I have never liked Frodo, either in the books or the movie!

So in my case, paying attention to detail did detract from my initial reaction to the movie. My emotional reaction grew in a negative strain because of my critical analysis.

joxy · Nov 19, 2002

Originally posted by Leto
The scene where the moth comes to Gandalf on Orthanc is beautiful....
And I still well up with tears seeing Hobbiton, and Bag End, for the first time in the movie, it looks absolutely perfect.

It's fascinating how people's reactions differ.
While I don't go quite so far with the emotion I agree that the Shire as now seen in EE looks perfect, and I was delighted to see the much improved way it is now introduced.
But then, the moth?! You love, it; I think it's ludicrous. What weird corner of PJ's imagination is devoted to nocturnal lepidoptera?! Anyway, in closeup it looks more like some weird mini-monster, that would have been more at home, magnified, in Jurassic Park.

joxy · Nov 19, 2002

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The problem for me was my own analysis of the film became overly critical the more I watched it.

I guess this means much the same as the way I feel: the more I see the film, including EE, the harder the absurdities hit me. I've tried to defend myself against them and failed, but now I know when they're coming and am ready with the fast-forward button!

Leto · Nov 19, 2002

It looks like a luna moth. A big one, maybe. It's just the feeling that scene evokes for me. Isengard, orcs mining, wheels turning, smoke pouring out...Gandalf, servant of the Fire, abandoned and hopeless in the midst of this, yet there is still hope...a simple moth...nature is not conquered, all is not evil. Gandalf's investment in the simple things of Middle Earth, love of nature and simple folk, is what proves to be the downfall of Saruman and Sauron. I see in that scene a microcosm of one of the main themes of the story, as well as a metaphor for the hope of escape and triumph that we all have in this world...

Leto · Nov 19, 2002

And I agree...the parts I can't stand (like the flight to the ford), I just skip over. DVD's are wonderful things...poof! no more Arwen, and I can pretend it happens just the way it does in the book...

I differ from some of you, in that my analysis of the film hasn't really changed since the first time I saw it. The first viewing in the theater had me shaking my head or shuddering at some of the scenes...and I don't really feel any better or worse about any of those. The things I liked then for the most part I still like now. And some small things, now that I have been able to see it more closely and more often, I have grown to like more (like the moth). Overall, I have come to like the film more, if anything, with the extended edition and a few more viewings. (especially since I can skip the parts I don't want to see

)

Eriol · Nov 21, 2002

With me the path has been the opposite compared to Ancalagon's. In the first viewing lots of small things surfaced in my mind, inconsistencies (although I never had any quarrel with totally invented scenes like the moth). The thing that riled me the most were changes (mostly weakenings) in the characters. Gandalf is weaker, we only see his prowess at his death (probably the next movie will remedy that), and also a bit dumb with that suggestion about the Gap of Rohan -- it is so much better in the lips of Boromir! Aragorn is much weaker. And so on.

But with the subsequent viewings, I learned how to fully enjoy what I found enjoyable (easily 95%+) and ignore the small matters. The movie is self-consistent, well-directed, well-cut, i.e it is a great movie in itself...

Thorin · Nov 21, 2002

Hmm...It just goes to show that one should be a NPW to start with like I was. After all the nit-picking and discussion on many of the erroneous, un-Tolkien parts of the movie, they were softened for me in that they never bothered me like they did when I first watched it....You could say I softened over time. For example, Gandalf bumping his head, Bilbo pulling the "scary monster face" and Boromir with the ring on the mountain didn't bother me when watching the EE....Saruman and Arwen are major exceptions, however.

The EE went very far in smoothing alot of the kinks for me. Were it not for it, I probably wouldn't have watched FoTR again. (Yes, including the EE, I've only seen the movie twice! I think I'm better for it, because I forgot many of the original scenes so I didn't really know what was cut and what was included. Hence, you could say that I watched it brand new!)

Ancalagon · Nov 21, 2002

.....and not one of you liked my amusing play on words

Anyhoo, I have yet to view the EE, so I will hopefully mellow a little in my opinions. I was never concerned with Gandalf bumping his head, I found that rather amusing and fleshed him out a little. Frodo, I simply cannot stand in this movie, but then I have mentioned that before.

Celebthôl · Nov 21, 2002

Careful Anc (can i call you Anc)? the EE in my opinion IS NOT as good as the previously released version, I dont know why but it doesn't seem right, don't get me wrong, it's still great that all that new stuff is in it but I like PJ's choice too keep them as they are! (did that make any sence)?

Thôl

Thorin · Nov 21, 2002

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Careful Anc (can i call you Anc)? the EE in my opinion IS NOT as good as the previously released version, I dont know why but it doesn't seem right, don't get me wrong, it's still great that all that new stuff is in it but I like PJ's choice too keep them as they are! (did that make any sence)?

Though I respect your opinion, Celeb, anyone who had problems like myself and Anc over the character development, or who wanted to see more truer scenes and dialogue from Tolkien, WILL definitely (or at least SHOULD) like the EE better. Those who liked action Arwen and rushed scenes and poor character development the first time around probably won't be impressed by the EE.

IMO, the EE saved this movie, and should definitely have been the one that was released in the theatre, 3.5 hours or not.

Celebthôl · Nov 21, 2002

well it may be coz i have only watched it once most ppl who i asked said the first time was not that good, but the way Isildur is portrayed sucked (he saved numenor pretty much and saved the white tree) they made him out as an evily type person who was weak i didnt like it!

Thôl

ps ill watch it again and give you my second opinion!

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