The Lord of the 💀Nazgul vs 🧙Gandalf the White

Úlairi · Apr 18, 2002

I am curious as to some of the opinions as to whether or not the Lord of the Nazgul could beat Gandalf the White. In 'The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Chapter Five: "The White Rider"' it says:

"And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have one, mightier than they: the White Rider."

Here Aragorn says that Gandalf is stronger than all the Nine together. However, Denethor says in 'The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Chapter Four: "The Siege of Gondor"':

"'Yet know under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'
'Then Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known the who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is that all you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you were overmatched?'"

It then continues a little later on the same page:

"'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly.

Even Gandalf the White is unsure of if he could beat the Morgul-lord. So, what do you people think?

Rangerdave · Apr 18, 2002

As far as Denethor would know, the Nazgul Lord would be more than a match for what he thought Gandalf was capable of handling. First of all, Denethor has no idea what Gandalf truly is. Certainly he recognizes a Wizard of Power, but not the source or depth of said power.

Also, Denethor had up until then only had dealings with Gandalf the Grey, the power of the White remained unknown to him.

Lastly, Denethor and reality had seemed to have a parting of the ways. so is opinion fact based or another lie of Mordor?

I would be interested to see what someone who knew the full truth. ie Cirdan or Galadriel would have thought the odds were in this contest.

Cool question none-the-less.

RD

ps did you get my e-mail?
rd

Beleg Strongbow · Apr 18, 2002

The valar forbided the Istari to use their power to "dominate others" and whilst being clothed they lost their power, right? Well i think as powerful as he could be with this power he would demolish the Morgul lord and the rest of the nazgul. Without it im not to sure. He was always wisest of the maia, Olorin.

(from the silmarillion "Valaquenta".)

"Wisest of the maia was Olorin (gandalf). He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways often took him to the house of Neinna and from her he learnt patience and pity".

It shows here how wise he was and i beleive he was wiser then one of suaron's servants. Even being his second in command.Olorin was still wiser then sauron, he counts as a maia. His power was very strong too. Even as Gandalf the grey he managed to kill another maia a balrog and i think, the balrog to be more stronger then the nazgul lord. He came back even stronger as Gandalf the white and being even stronger i beleive he was more powerful. As Aragorn said and Ulairi quoted he was extremely powerful and this guy had met both partys in full flight, i'd think he'd know. As for his reply to Denethor i always thought he was just trying to downplay it and not show off as one might call it. I think he didn't want to show Denethor any of those arrogant feelings. I think Gandalf while being strongfer might have found it a little hard to kill the nazgul. It was said that not a man would kill the nazgul, it ended being a hobbit. I bet that guy had taken some bigger and harder hits then that in his life. The flood at Imladris for one. I think Gandalf would have one in all catergories. He was very strong and in the end i think he could beat the dark lords second.

Niniel · Apr 18, 2002

I think that Gandalf the White was a lot more powerful than the Nazgul Lord. I agree with RD that Denethor didn't know Gandalf the White and didn't want to admit that Gandalf was mightier than himself. If even Éowyn and Merry could defeat the Nazgul Lord, Gandalf the White must have been able do to it.

Anamatar IV · Apr 18, 2002

im sure gandalf could beat the morgul lord. He stood against a Balrog one on one right? He is a member of the secret fire and holds the flame of Anor. I really dont know what that means bu t, whatever

Lord Melkor · Apr 18, 2002

Gandalf was most likely stronger than Lord Of Nazgul but I don`t think he would defeat all Ringwraiths at once.

Greenwood · Apr 18, 2002

Denethor had been sparring with Gandalf since Gandalf's arrival in Minas Tirith. I think this is just another example of Denethor trying to needle Gandalf. Gandalf's response is just his way f quietly saying "I am not rising to the bait."

pohuist · Apr 18, 2002

I would agree with all said above. One other point: I belive Gandalf said at some point (I think to Gimli when they met in Fangorn forest, although, I am not sure), something to the effect that he could be the scariest and the mightiest in ME unless the Dark Lord himself is come. That, of course, meeans that he is able to beat the Lord of Nazgul or even the 9 of them together. After all, Gandalf is a Maia, while an elf (Glorfindel) was able to drive 5 of them off the bridge. Their main weapon is fear of which Gandalf had none.

Anamatar IV · Apr 18, 2002

if gandalf is the wisest of maia then why was saruman the head of the council? Could saruman take on the nazgul lord?

DGoeij · Apr 18, 2002

I've read in the Unfinished Tales that when the Valar wished to aid the people in ME, they decided to send Maiar and that Curunir (Saruman) was very eager to go. Olorin (Gandalf) had to be pushed to go and he came last.
Therefor I guess Gandalf also didn't really want the job as head of the council and I can imagine Saruman being very eager. And before the first body of Gandalf was destroyed during his fighting with the Balrog, I believe Saruman's was more mighty.

pohuist · Apr 18, 2002

Originally posted by amerxtremist
if gandalf is the wisest of maia then why was saruman the head of the council? Could saruman take on the nazgul lord?

Saruman used to be the mightiest b/f Gandalf became White. Interesting question about Saruman vs. Nazgul Lord. When the 9 rode to Orthanc with questions of whereabouts of the Ring (UT, Hunt for the Ring), Tolkien said that Saruman was capable of withstanding their attack while in Orthanc. That seems to imply that without Orthanc defences he could not. Still leaves open the question of his strength compared to the Lord of Nasgul alone. I would be still inclined to think that any Maia is more powerful

Rangerdave · Apr 18, 2002

Wisdom and Might are seldom the same thing. Also Cirdan and Galadriel would have prefered Gandalf to head the council. My personal opinion is that Gandalf refused because it would take up to much of his thought.

And in response to the matter of the Nazgul Lord not being able to be "killed by any man". Well, Wizards are not really men now are they.

Just my thoughts
RD

Beleg Strongbow · Apr 18, 2002

And in response to the matter of the Nazgul Lord not being able to be "killed by any man". Well, Wizards are not really men now are they.

Just my thoughts
RD [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes they are not, but if you were Gandalf how would you kill them? I beleive that saruman would have not been able to beat the nazgul. Remember Gandalf said "Saruman might hold out while he satys in his tower". (on the nazgul) or something along those lines.

Úlairi · Apr 18, 2002

All very good arguments guys, but none of them are really convincing, which is what I am looking for. The reason I posted this thread is on this very basic point. Here from UT I wilkl explain what I mean:

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order. but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain."
Unfinished Tales Page 503

So Gandalf could be slain, we all know that, as the Balrog killed Gandalf. All the Lord of the Nazgul would have to do is decapitiate Gandalf or stab him and Gandalf would perish. Someone made the false statement that Gandalf felt no fear, where it clearly states up there that he could. It says in 'The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Chapter Four: "The Siege of Gondor"':

"But it is the Black Captain that defeats us. Few will stand and abide even the rumour that he is coming. His won folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding."

As you can see, the Lord of the Nazgul is so terrible, if he told a man to kill himself he would. Not so with Gandalf I agree, and I know that Gandalf stands up to him, yet they are never fight. What I am saying is that Gandalf may lose to the Witch-King both because of his terror and the fact that he could kill Gandalf.

Rangerdave · Apr 18, 2002

I think that Gandalf could possibly dispatch the Witch King, but only at the cost of himself. Not just his body as in the battle with the Balrog, but the complete demise of his complete being.

I realize that a Maiar this would be difficult, but just because there is no evidence of an uncorrupted Maiar being destroyed, but it maitain that it is conceivable.

Or maybe not
RD

Úlairi · Apr 18, 2002

You see RD, that's exactly what I believe. If anyone is interested in a theory I have on the identity of the Witch-King PM me or check out 'The identity of the the Lord of the Nazgul' thread. As for Gandalf defeating the Lord of the Nazgul, I am still unsure in light of the evidence that I have given.

Lord Melkor · Apr 19, 2002

A bit off topic, but Ulairi, I remember you were writing LOTR continuation, have you abandomed this project?

SpencerC18 · Apr 19, 2002

Honestly I think Gandalf would win, because although the witch-king is extremely powerful, his origins are human, but now a wraith. At most I think he is merely a very powerul sorcerer, Gandalf could take him.

Lantarion · Apr 19, 2002

I agree: all of the Nazgûl were once normal Men, but the corrosive power of their Rings broke them down into (more powerful) wraiths. Whereas Olórin was a 'pure' Maia (plural MAIAR!!), and his powers could not be matched by any Man, even if that Man had been given special magical powers. I agree w/ Spencer that thw Witch-King was just a powerful sorcerer: a Man with magical powers. But Gandalf was a Maia and a 'sorcerer' (ie. wizard, magician), and although he had a mortal form and could die physically, his spirit could not be quenched by any power in M-E except perhaps Sauron, being a Maia of higher 'rank'.

Úlairi · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Pontifex
I agree: all of the Nazgûl were once normal Men, but the corrosive power of their Rings broke them down into (more powerful) wraiths.

I agree.

"But the Great Rings, they are perilous."

Gandalf says here that one of the Great Rings would be perilous even for himself let alone a mortal. The Nine were believed to be men, however, IMO, I believe these Rings gave them extraordinary power. So, therefore IMO the Lord of the Nazgul may have been a match for Gandalf the White.

Originally posted by Pontifex
Whereas Olórin was a 'pure' Maia (plural MAIAR!!), and his powers could not be matched by any Man, even if that Man had been given special magical powers.

I disagree Pontifex. You cannot 'presume' what the powers of the Nine Rings held. Perhaps it made the Lord of the Nazgul as powerful as Gandalf, that we will never know.

Originally posted by Pontifex
I agree w/ Spencer that thw Witch-King was just a powerful sorcerer: a Man with magical powers.

Again I disagree, there is no proof to actually say who the Witch-King actually was. For all we know, he could have been one of the Ithryn Luin.

Originally posted by Pontifex
But Gandalf was a Maia and a 'sorcerer' (ie. wizard, magician), and although he had a mortal form and could die physically, his spirit could not be quenched by any power in M-E except perhaps Sauron, being a Maia of higher 'rank'.

Yes, Gandalf was a Maia and a sorcerer, I agree. Gandalf could die physically which is what the thread is about Pontifex. I am not interested in Gandalf's spirit, but just how his body would stand against the Lord of the Nazgul. As far as I'm concerned, this argument is far from over.

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