Concerning 🧙Gandalf and Bombadil

reem · Apr 19, 2003

if we are to consider that Bombadil is indeed Aule, then why does Gandalf (whom is Olorin) more active in the matters of middle earth in the third age??
is it because Aule's power is limited by his part in the Music in the beggining? but wasn't it also mentioned in the sill. that Aule took the chief part against Melkor in the Music?
and why has he taken the shape of a normal man? should not his shape (rainment) be somewhat impressive, like that of the other Valars?

and here is another question that might seem a bit silly, but i lost my Sill. book and i haven't read all of it...infact, a very small portion of it and i keep forgeting everything, so who exactly is Olorin? was he a valar or a maiar?
i know this thread should be in the Sill. forum, but since i fist got the concept of Bomnadil being Aule from here, so i felt more comfortable posting it here. and also the Sill. forum looked a bit intimidating! hehe!

reem

Beleg · Apr 19, 2003

if we are to consider that Bombadil is indeed Aule,

We can consider many things, but what prompted you to say that Bombadil is Aule? Their natures seem pretty different.

Now I am confused, you are answering the Question yourself. Olorin is the name given to Gandalf.

Aulë · Apr 19, 2003

And Olorin was a Maia.
Olorin was one of the Istari (Wizards) selected by the Valar for the journey from Valinor to Middle-earth to aid the Free Peoples against the return and rise of Sauron.

Lantarion · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Olorin is the name given to Gandalf.

..Or vice versa.

Aulë · Apr 19, 2003

Lanty- You're Deep Thoughts need some more thought. The current one is wrong on so many levels...

lol
*can't stop laughing*

Lantarion · Apr 19, 2003

I know, that's the point.

It's in my psychology book actually, as a wrong way to use deductive reasoning..

BlackCaptain · Apr 19, 2003

Tom Bombadil is NOT Aule. I can't see how anyone thinks he is. Tolkien intentionaly didn't classify Tom, and if we do want to classify him, we have nothing to proove it. Tolkien himself didn't want Tom to be anything, so I say Tom is just Tom. Not Maia, Dwarf, Elf, Man, Vala, Ea, Eru... Just Tom

Anamatar IV · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Tom Bombadil is NOT Aule. I can't see how anyone thinks he is. Tolkien intentionaly didn't classify Tom, and if we do want to classify him, we have nothing to proove it. Tolkien himself didn't want Tom to be anything, so I say Tom is just Tom. Not Maia, Dwarf, Elf, Man, Vala, Ea, Eru... Just Tom

This from the same person that said

Great Mai, wich were offspring of Valar were made. The Istari (wizards), Tom Bombadil, the Eagle kings (like gwahir) were all good Mai.

Tom bombadil is the same "Being" that Gandalf, and even Sauron is.

Mai=Balrogs, Saruon, Gandalf, Radagast, Sauraman, and Tom Bombadil

Just pointing out a few minor inconsistencies.

Actually there was a very persuasive and understandable essay saying Tom is Aule. I don't remember the URL but maybe that is where reem got his first part.

Inderjit S · Apr 19, 2003

The idea that Tom is Aule is rubbish. Total rubbish. If anything Tom is a enigma. If you want to classify him, then I suppose you caould say he is a Maia.

that Aule took the chief part against Melkor in the Music

That was Manwe.

BlackCaptain · Apr 19, 2003

Anamatar, Those quotes were from a long time ago, and when I myself did believe Tom was a Maia. But I've changed my mind now, and for some good reasons. Yes, I did say those things, but I've changed my mind after having read more things.

Ithrynluin · Apr 19, 2003

Check out this thread. The link to the Bombadil/Aulë essay is on page 5.

Melko Belcha · Apr 19, 2003

I wouldn't classify Tom with any of the races of ME, Valar, Maiar, Elf, Man, or Dwarf. He is suppost to not fit in, that is where his mystery comes in. I have read the essay on Tom being Aule and I am totally unconvinced.

reem · Apr 20, 2003

i can't remember who posted the thread about bombadil being aule origionally, and i can't remember the thread wither

but i read the essay and it was extremely convincing. it takes in all the possibilties:
Bombadil as a nature spirit, and enigma, a maia, and a vala. it was concluded, with much logical proofs, that he was Aule and that Goldberry is Yavanna. there are many subtle similarites and clues which tolkien had assumedly dropped here and there and left for those who truelly wished to pursue the subject. maybe in my next post i can qoute some parts to better familliarise you with the essay, but i only have a printed copy and so it'll be some time. but i hope someone can post the origional like to clear things up.
mean while, is there anyone here who read the essy before??
reem

Beleg · Apr 20, 2003

I am not convinced. Even though the Essay is well written, which it is, i still believe that Tolkien was not clear, even to himself, about Tom's supposed race, and if you take it into consideration, Tolkien discussed Tom many times, in letters, in LOTR, and he had ample time to state what Race Tom belonged to, but he decided to keep it as it is.

The idea that Tom is Aule is rubbish. Total rubbish. If anything Tom is a enigma. If you want to classify him, then I suppose you caould say he is a Maia.

Can't put it better myself.

Melko Belcha · Apr 20, 2003

Letters #144

As a story, I think it is good that there be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists): and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much, and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the Council of Elrond. And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).....The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent againt compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view in Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.

Letter #153

I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it........I do not mean him to be an allegory - or I should not have gave him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name - but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibitig certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. Even the Elves hardly show this: they are primarily artists.

Take it how you want, but I do not believe Tolkien meant T.B. to be explained. Tom is an enigma, nothing more nothing less, Tom is Tom, and that is all he is.

BlackCaptain · Apr 20, 2003

I couldn't agree with you more Melko

Thorondor_ · May 15, 2005

Even if Tolkien didn't want us to make a big philosophy out of Tom, remember that even Gandalf, a maia, was afraid of the ring... perhaps Tom is a mistery, but he must be at least vala-level.

Arthur_Vandelay · May 15, 2005

Melko Belcha said:
Take it how you want, but I do not believe Tolkien meant T.B. to be explained.

Of course, of course. That doesn't mean we can't engage in idle speculation, does it?

Thorondor_ · May 15, 2005

The more I think about it, the more I find Tolkien's comments on Tom rather... uninspired?

a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are ‘other’ and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with ‘doing’ anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture .

Unconcerned with doing anything with the knowledge?? What would have happened if the hobbits were killed by Old Man Willow? Or by the wraith? Or what if Merry didn't have the blessed knife? I TRULY doubt Tom had no foreknoledge of the consequences of his actions.
You know, I don't think that an author can make a very delicate, complex universe, be it of music, myth, or grammar, and then take some part of it (this case Tom) and say: OK, I know that acording to the rules I set, this part of my universe can bear certain attributes, but, I decide that he is something else, which only I can see this way, even if it is not logical.
I guess not. By the very hints given in his work, Tom is not a spirit interested only in science, otherwise he shouldn't have had such a critical, instrumental role. And by not being affected by the ring, he is a freaking vala-level being, lol, I got carried away

Alatar · May 15, 2005

Tom was before Ea.
Tom has a wife.
Tom is not aule, manwe, Ulmo, tulkas, mandos, orome or lorin.
Tom is therefore a maia.
The aule essay says to is not a maia as the is no refence in the Sil to a Tom like maia, I say that tolkein said that NO-ONE knew how many Maia there were so Tom is a maia.
Not a special maia, just a normal everyday demi-god.

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