Who were the High-Elves?

Ithrynluin · Aug 20, 2003

This is a follow-up to a discussion that stemmed here.

Is the title 'High-Elf' reserved solely for those who dwell, or have dwelled, in Aman?

Or can it be applied to those born in Middle-Earth, to High-Elven parents as well? If so, are all Elves in such a line considered High-Elves then? Or rather, are the (grand) children of High-Elves (the children being born in ME) less 'High-Elven' than their parents?

Following that line of thought, is Gil-Galad a High-Elf? Elrond? Lúthien? etc...

Does the amount of time an Elf spends in Aman matter? Does 'the High-Elven effect' begin to fade away slowly or is it eternal in its longevity? Or is it all the same, regardless of how long an Elf spends in Aman? Was Thingol, having spend a very short time in Aman, equally a High-Elf as someone who has lived there all their life? I guess to answer that we must first ask ourselves what exactly makes the Elves who dwell in Aman - High? (ahem!

)

Letter 144 to Naomi Mitchison
...the High Elves, who became immensely enhanced in powers and knowledge.

I guess it is the land itself that enhances the Elves, plus of course all the knowledge and teachings imparted upon them by the Valar. In that light, I guess it does matter how long an elf has spent in Aman. Therefore, is Thingol less of a High-Elf than the others?

Bucky · Aug 20, 2003

I think that the Light of the Two trees itself 'enhanced' the Elves in power.

There's alot of research I need to do before making a proper post.

This subject gets rather involved.....

Elwe/Thingol, he was a High Elf & considered Calaquendi, the Silmarillion is clear on that.
The Sil also states that he was 'loaned' or 'given' power from Melian & was mighty among the Elves of middle-earth.

I'll be back.....

Maerbenn · Aug 20, 2003

High Elves

In 'Of Dwarves and Men' written in about 1969 and published in HoMe XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth Tolkien says of the term:

the High Elves (or Elves of Light) were the Ñoldor who returned in exile out of the Far West

Ithrynluin · Aug 20, 2003

Should that quote provide a definite answer, Maerbenn? Because it is a little hazy if you ask me. Its wording is a little clumsy - only the Noldor who returned into ME are High-Elves? What about those Noldor that remained, and the Vanyar and Teleri of Aman? Since the quote doesn't mention them, should we assume that they are not High Elves? I think not.

by Bucky
I think that the Light of the Two trees itself 'enhanced' the Elves in power.

Do you think that the length of exposure to the Light of Aman was a deciding factor as to how enhanced an Elf would be? Sort of like - the longer you stay in the sun, the more burned/tanned you'll get.

by Bucky
The Sil also states that he was 'loaned' or 'given' power from Melian & was mighty among the Elves of middle-earth.

I do wonder...How did Melian go about 'lending' some of her power to Thingol? Or should we take that to simply mean that she imparted much of her wisdom upon him?

Bucky · Aug 20, 2003

The Sil, chapter 4:

'Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great amoung the Eldar; for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering, & king though he was of Umanyar, he was not accounted amoung the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the light, mighty upon Middle-earth.'

The point isn't really what is a High Elf, it's whether those like Elrond & Gil-Galad who were desended from High Elves but lived later are Calaquendi or Moriquendi.

And that is going to take some SERIOUS research to dig up the varied information.

Another point is whether or not length of exposure to the Light of the Two Trees gave greater power, or whether length of stay in Valinor during the day before days made a difference in power.

Confusticated · Aug 21, 2003

HoME XI, Quendi and Eldar
The Kalaquendi in Quenya applied only to the Elves who actualy lived or had lived in Aman; and the Moriquendi was applied to all others, whether they had come on the March or not.

This same definition of the word Calaquendi is seen in The Silmarillion and anywhere else I can think of, but I think it is stated most clearly in Q&E that the term is only used for those who had actually dwelt there. I see no way of interpreting this as meaning Calaquendi parents who have come to Middle-earth will have a Calaquende child.

But it is my belief that such a child would be more powerful than one born to Moriquendi parents.

PS: This lead me to a thought... can anyone tell me exactly where to find information on Voronwe's mother? I have this idea she is a Sinda but can not recall where I read this or if I had just once assumed it.

Beleg · Aug 21, 2003

Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
I was born here in Middle-earth in the land of Nevrast. My mother was of the Grey-elves of the Falas, and akin to Círdan himself - there was much mingling of the peo_ples in Nevrast in the first days of Turgon's kingship - and I have the sea-heart of my mother's people

It's unfinished tales stuff.

Ithrynluin · Sep 17, 2003

Does the amount of time an Elf spends in Aman matter?

The Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor
The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for [color=sky blue]the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes[/color], and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible.

I guess this indicates that 'the Aman effect' wears off slowly but surely, as soon as a High-Elf leaves the Undying Lands.

Do you think this means such Elves diminish in power then? Greatly or only slightly?

Starflower · Sep 19, 2003

The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes

I think what this means is that the High-Elves who had actually been to Aman were stronger than those living later whose experience was only secondhand , ie due to parentage.
Of those living in M-E at the time of LoTr only Galadriel ( and Celebrimbor maybe, that is unclear) was a true High-Elf, she had been in Aman in the time of the Trees. People such as Elrond ( who was halfelven anyway) was considered High-Elven cause of his Eldarin descent, but he had been born in Middle-Earth.

Starflower

Inderjit S · Sep 19, 2003

Celebrimbor wanst around at the time of LoTr. When he was around in the S.A there were many High Elves. Tolkien says there are some in Rivendell, there would have been some in Lindon too, maybe. Celebrimbor was a High Elf.

Glorfindel was also a High Elf. (By 'High Elf' here, I mean one who is from Aman.) Gildor Inglorion may have been one too.

Starflower · Sep 19, 2003

sorry , brain meltdown - i meant Celeborn

but I think the Elves in Rivendell and especially Lindon would have been High Elves in the meaning that they were dexcendants of the original Noldor. Cirdan was never in Aman, and since the Havens were a place where people LEFT for Aman, wouldn't really make sense for the Hgh-Elves to dwell there.

Glorfindel is described as High-Elven, yes, but again, I don't think he was around the time of the Trees....

Starflower

Inderjit S · Sep 19, 2003

Celeborn was a Sindar. Not one who came from Aman, though in some versions he was a Teler.

Mithlond was also a small city/large town, which would have contained a considerable Amanyar population. Some would have been the remnants of Gil-Galad's realm of Lindon and some would have dwelt close to sea because of their desire to cross it. I don't see how the fact that Mithlond was a place whereby the Elves were able to leave for Aman means Amanyar didn't dwell there.

Last Writings (HoME 12) tells us Glorfindel was a Elf of Aman, who had seen the light of the Trees.

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Who were the High-Elves?

Ithrynluin

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