A question about Glorfindel.

[Link]

Now, If I remember correctly, (from The Encyclopedia of Arda), Tolkien never gave a concrete reference, but he indeed meant that Glorfindel of Rivendell was the reincarnated Glorfindel from Gondolin. Gandalf even mentions something about ones like Glorfindel existing both in the West and in ME. Now, Glorfindel of Gondolin fought and killed a balrog during the sack of Gondolin in the Sil. During this battle, he himself was killed (hence that he was re-incarnated thereafter), but this battle secured the escape of Tuor, Idril and Earendil. Now, in the Fellowship of the Ring, we see Glorfindel as a slight subordinate to Elrond. Why would Glorfindel be a lesser lord of Elrond, if he was the one who secured Elrond's father's (Earendil) escape and killed a Balrog in the process? Wouldn't Glorfindel be consisdered higher of stature than Elrond then?

 

[Proudfoots]

Maybe it had something to do with senority, like at a factory.

Glorfindel went on an extended leave of absence (death) and because of that Elrond got the promotion instead. That capitalist pig.

It seems that work place politics clutter up even the greatest of societies...

Hobbits of the World Unite!!

'foots

 

[HLGStrider]

I guess it would be the Elven ring...

Also there was Elrond's "connections." He was married to Galadriel's daughter... just a thought.

Then his assistance of Gil-Gilad. The flag bearer, an honorable position. He was also one of the Half-Elven, a position of awe made for those doomed great lives.

 

[BrandonBrassbow]

i read that the second Glorfindel was actually a mistake.
Tolkien said that he accidently named the second character Glorfindel. and because elves names are unique and are not named after previous elves, it couldn't of been a different elf by the same name.
he let the story of middle earth create itself, so if he made a mistake he put a reason behind it, ie: Glorfindel. after discovering the mistake, instead of changing it he said that he must've been a reincarnate of the previous Glorfindel.
so i think that that Glorfindel doesn't share the same past as the first one.

 

[Arvedui]

so i think that that Glorfindel doesn't share the same past as the first one.

I didn't quite catch that one. If he is a reincarnation of himself, I would suppose he didn't chance background?

But the rest of your statement I believe is correct. To my understanding, it is written somewhere in the HoME books.

 

[BrandonBrassbow]

I didn't quite catch that one. If he is a reincarnation of himself, I would suppose he didn't chance background?

i was saying that he probably already developed the 2nd Glorfindel character before he realized the mistake, therefore giving him the "subordinate" status in the original question. but after he attributed Glorfindel's reapperance to reincarnation, he gave the 2nd, the 1st's history, so i was wrong in saying that they didn't share history. what i meant to say was...orginally they weren't the same person, so Glorfindel's history didn't come into thought process of giving him his position as the reincarnate.

...if that makes any sense.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Link
Now, in the Fellowship of the Ring, we see Glorfindel as a slight subordinate to Elrond. Why would Glorfindel be a lesser lord of Elrond, if he was the one who secured Elrond's father's (Earendil) escape and killed a Balrog in the process? Wouldn't Glorfindel be consisdered higher of stature than Elrond then?

Also keep in mind that Elrond was a descendant of 2 royal lines
- Turgon (<---Fingolfin <---Finwë)
- Thingol

He also had Maiarin blood and his father was allowed to find the road to Aman and sailed the skies bearing a Silmaril.

 

[Link]

Well, so was Glorfindel:

Glorfindel <-------(a descendant of Finarfin)<-----------(the last son of Finwe and Indis (Indis being a Vanyar Elf).

Glorfindel was also described as being an Elf prince from a line of noble princes.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Link
Well, so was Glorfindel:

Glorfindel <-------(a descendant of Finarfin)<-----------(the last son of Finwe and Indis (Indis being a Vanyar Elf).

This is mere speculation. He was an elf prince, but that doesn't necessarily make him a member of the "foremost" royal family (that of Finwë). There could have been other (lesser) royal families, and Glorfindel a descendant of one of these.

Check out what I said in the thread Glorfindel

 

[Link]

Don't worry, I'm followin that thread closely also.

 

[Beorn]

What's the deal with Glorfindel may help

 

[Athelas]

Originally posted by Proudfoots
Glorfindel went on an extended leave of absence (death) and because of that Elrond got the promotion instead. That capitalist pig.

<snicker>

>he let the story of middle earth create itself, so if he made a mistake he put a reason behind it<

I have noticed, both in maskmaking and writing, that mistakes have led to some wonderful things I might not ever have intentionally created.

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by BrandonBrassbow: i read that the second Glorfindel was actually a mistake. Tolkien said that he accidently named the second character Glorfindel.

At one point during the writing of LOTR the Prof wrote: "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin." (LOTR drafts). JRRT lifted a name already invented. Names Legolas and Gimli, for examples, also already appeared in BOLT.

... and because elves names are unique and are not named after previous elves, it couldn't of been a different elf by the same name.

What JRRT said was: The repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in the Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance."

But even this was simply JRRT working out if he indeed really wanted the two Elves to be the same. He could have simply changed the name of the famed Elf if desired.

__________

"It would indeed have been open to him to change the name of Glorfindel of Gondolin, who had appeared in no published writing, but he did not mention this possibility." ~ Christopher Tolkien
__________

... he let the story of middle earth create itself, so if he made a mistake he put a reason behind it, ie: Glorfindel. after discovering the mistake, instead of changing it he said that he must've been a reincarnate of the previous Glorfindel. so i think that that Glorfindel doesn't share the same past as the first one.

Tolkien decided (at least in the texts in HOME) that they were the same, and so, they indeed shared the same past. But I don't see how an Elf named Glorfindel in LOTR would be a "mistake".

JRRT merely stated that the name "escaped reconsideration" in the final published form of LOTR (though he certainly had enough time during the writing of LOTR to 'consider' it). He followed that this was unfortunate for linguistic reasons, regarding the form of the name anyway.

 

[Maeglin]

ooohhh fun fun I love Glorfindel threads!
But anyway I posted something about Glorfindel's ancestry a long time ago in a thread that didn't have anything to do with good old Glory, check it out .

Now about him being subordinate to Elrond I guess its because of Elrond's ring, but Glorfindel is older and therefore I'd say wiser, but because he was gone for so long they gave Elrond a place of authority and power, but Glorfindel should be above him. But I'm not even really srue that he is subordinate to Elrond so much as he is more of an equal to him, I don't think Elrond would ever command Glor to do something, he would probably ask it of him as a friend and since Glor is such a good guy he'd do it anyway if it helps others. Just my thoughts

 

[Eledhwen]

I think Glorfindel had no problem with being subordinate to Elrond in Rivendell, because he had nothing to prove.

 

[Maeglin]

you're right he didn't have anything to prove, but that doesn't necessarily make him subordinate, he could still be an equal, and no one ever said he had a problem with being subordinate, only I have a problem with him being subordinate.

 

[Turgon]

I think that the simplest answer to this question is that Rivendell was, after all, the House of Elrond. Glorfindel then would only be 'subordinate' in the manner that all guests are to the Master of the House. But it's notable that he holds a place of honour at Elrond's side. Can we really expect an Elf Lord of Glorfindel's breeding to be so churlish as to usurp Elrond's place at the head of table...?!?

Bilbo Baggins in 'Many Meetings'
'...he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond it was my affair...'

Maybe Elrond was touchy about these things...

 

[HLGStrider]

Yes, it was his home... I can't remember the origins of Rivendell, Imladris... though I do remember a Tolkien quote saying that calling Rivendell Imladris was about the same as calling Cambridge Camelot.. or something like that.

Did Elrond found Imladris or just inherit it?

 

[Mablung]

Founded I believe unless Im sorely mistaken.

 

[Eriol]

It's a pity I don't come here in weekends... my instinctive answer was that given by Turgon: it is his house. I remember the attitude of Aragorn when requested to relinquish Andúril, he said something like "...even if this was but a woodman's cot I would bow to the will of the master of the house...". Sounds satisfying enough to sort out the hierarchy at Rivendell.

Also, Elrond founded Imladris after Eregion was destroyed, and brought the remnants of the Noldor that lived there. He was the second-in-command (after Gil-galad) in the Noldor hierarchy, and after Gil-galad passed he assumed the leadership of the remnant. Was Glorfindel around at that time? Does anyone know when Glorfindel returned to ME? I think not, but could be wrong. And if he was not around, then even if he has a greater lineage (very doubtful) and power he would accept Elrond as the leader of the Noldor, chosen by the last High King.