A question about problem of ros

[Turin_Turambar]

Does andreth say that the language of her people cannot be spoken until turin slays the ancalagon? Something similar to this was left in my mind and I wanted to ask.

 

[Elthir]

Aww. I thought this thread was going to be about the word(s) ros!

"It is said that before Manwe he [Earendil] spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor [17], pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar."

[17]
"The language of the folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle would return from the dead, and before he left the Circles of the World forever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke."

JRRT, author's note, note 17, The Problem Of ROS

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Aww. I thought this thread was going to be about the word(s) ros!

"It is said that before Manwe he [Earendil] spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor [17], pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar."

[17]
"The language of the folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle would return from the dead, and before he left the Circles of the World forever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke."

JRRT, author's note, note 17, The Problem Of ROS

Thank you very much. And I will tell you something. Why some of Tolkien's writings are not consistent with each other. There is inconsistency not only on this subject, but also on many issues. Do you think Turin will fight in the war of wrath if there are silmarillion films?

 

[Elthir]

Do you think Turin will fight in the war of wrath if there are silmarillion films?

Hmm. How many people have even read The Problem Of ROS compared to the 1977 Silmarillion?

The Problem Of ROS is "just" a short-ish text about some Elvish words (which includes a failed idea to boot) -- the kind of thing that might make even some of the biggest Tolkien fans yawn -- and who's really paying that much attention to lonely note 17?

Besides you I mean

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Turin killed Ancalagon. Earendel killing Ancalagon is a rejected idea. You can't change my mind.

 

[Elthir]

I guess it depends upon who is making this Silmarillion film, and what this imagined director decides to portray. But if it's "Silmarillion films" in the sense of portraying the 1977 Silmarillion, then my money is on Earendil.

As director, myself, I'd have Andreth kill Ancalagon!

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

I'd have Andreth kill Ancalagon!

Why?

 

[Elthir]

Why?

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

(After scanning the whole topics for several times)...OK, time is precious, what we need now is only off-topic.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Aww. I thought this thread was going to be about the word(s) ros!

"It is said that before Manwe he [Earendil] spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor [17], pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar."

[17]
"The language of the folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle would return from the dead, and before he left the Circles of the World forever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke."

JRRT, author's note, note 17, The Problem Of ROS

I have one more question. Did Tolkien give up on his prophecy that Turin killed the ancalagon? an idea he abandoned?

 

[Alcuin]

As far as I recall, the only mention of Túrin’s killing Ancalagon at the end of the world is mentioned only in “The Problem of Ros”. Christopher Tolkien notes that, “This remarkable saying has long roots, extending back to the prophecy at the end of the old Tale of Turambar,” but I believe the phrase this remarkable saying refers to the return of Túrin Turambar to fight in the Dagor Dagorath, apparently the only Man to do so, where until this late writing on ros he slew Morgoth, not Ancalagon. It is at least in opposition with the material in Shaping of Middle-earth, which is undoubtedly much earlier than “Problem of Ros”, one of the last things Tolkien wrote, perhaps the very last. The thrust of the tale until that time had been that Eärendil killed Ancalagon in the War of Wrath, saving the day for the Host of the Valar.

Consider this as well. If Ancalagon the Black, a monstrously large, flying, fire-breathing dragon, were not killed at the end of the First Age, where exactly was he hiding out for the next two ages of Middle-earth? Does anyone actually propose that this servant of Morgoth, this bane of Elves, Men, and Dwarves (not to mention Maiar in the Host of the Valar) was asleep somewhere, or that he failed to appear to wreak as much havoc and ruin as possible, not to mention gather as much treasure as possible, for the next 6300 years? Such an assertion makes no sense! What makes sense is that Tolkien in his old age began writing things at odds with what was already published (in the case of Galadriel), varying from the tales as he had always related them to his children and in his other notes: Túrin’s killing Ancalagon at the end of the world rather than Eärendil’s killing the dragon at the end of the First Age is one of these.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I guess it depends upon who is making this Silmarillion film, and what this imagined director decides to portray. But if it's "Silmarillion films" in the sense of portraying the 1977 Silmarillion, then my money is on Earendil.

As director, myself, I'd have Andreth kill Ancalagon!

If the movie of The Silmarillion is made, I will ask the director to make Turin fight in the war of wrath, and I will bribe him if necessary.

 

[Elthir]

As far as I recall, the only mention of Túrin’s killing Ancalagon at the end of the world is mentioned only in “The Problem of Ros”.

The end of the Elder Days though

See CJRT's commentary regarding this.

 

[Elthir]

If the movie of The Silmarillion is made, I will ask the director to make Turin fight in the war of wrath, and I will bribe him if necessary.

I hope it is me then.

And it better be a lot . . . or you'll get Andreth

 

[Alcuin]

As far as I recall, the only mention of Túrin’s killing Ancalagon at the end of the world is mentioned only in “The Problem of Ros”.

The end of the Elder Days though

See CJRT's commentary regarding this.

Whoa, whoa. The War of Wrath, which took place at the end of the First Age, is not the Dagor Dagorath, the penultimate battle at the end of Arda. I don’t see anything in CJRT’s commentary on the passage to indicate that Túrin was supposed to be resurrected for the War of Wrath: his return was prophesied (in various forms and tellings) for the Dagor Dagorath, in which he kills Morgoth using the Black Sword in recompense for that wicked Vala’s treatment of Húrin’s family in particular and Men in general. The return of Túrin, it seems to me, is the “remarkable saying” to which CJRT refers, not his father’s reference to Túrin’s killing Ancalagon, who was already dead by the end of the War of Wrath, a point mentioned nowhere else in History of Middle-earth (at least according to the Index volume). I do not yet have a copy of Nature of Middle-earth, but unless Hofstetter has included some new, earlier reference to Túrin and Ancalagon, it seems to me this occurrence in “Problem of Ros” is spurious.

Túrin was dead and gone before the War of Wrath. Ancalagon and the flying dragons first appeared in the War of Wrath, and Ancalagon was killed during that war: ergo Túrin couldn’t kill Ancalagon. Q.E.D. You can argue that since Túrin was mortal and returns for the Dagor Dagorath (in the widely referenced Second Prophecy of Mandos, which unlike the Doom of the North or the Oath of Fëanor is never cleanly recited in HoMe but instead serially referred to, or the Prophecy of Andreth, which is (as far as I am aware) only mentioned in “Ros”), Ancalagon can also return for Túrin to kill him a second time; but then Morgoth gets off scot-free, I suppose.

I consider Túrin’s killing Ancalagon instead of Morgoth an aberrant entry in Tolkien’s notes near the end of his life.

Turin killed Ancalagon. Earendel killing Ancalagon is a rejected idea. You can't change my mind.

“I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”

 

[Elthir]

Alcuin

"Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text, p. 371);"
Christopher Tolkien, commentary, note 17

"For after the Last Battle and the overthrow of Morgoth, when the Valar gave to Elros and Elrond a choice to belong either to the kin of the Eldar or to the kin of Men, it was Elros . . ."
JRRT, The Problem of ROS

 

[Elthir]

Túrin was dead and gone before the War of Wrath. Ancalagon and the flying dragons first appeared in the War of Wrath, and Ancalagon was killed during that war: ergo Túrin couldn’t kill Ancalagon. Q.E.D.

But he would "return from the dead" according to Andreth's prophecy (post 2 above), for the War of Wrath . . . so that's how (and for CJRT's commentary, see post 16).

🐾

 

[Alcuin]

"Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text, p. 371);"
Christopher Tolkien, commentary, note 17

"For after the Last Battle and the overthrow of Morgoth, when the Valar gave to Elros and Elrond a choice to belong either to the kin of the Eldar or to the kin of Men, it was Elros . . ."
JRRT, The Problem of ROS

Fair enough.

Footnote 17 in my copy of Peoples of Middle-earth comprises the better part of 2 whole pages. I count no fewer than six citations by CJRT of this Second Prophecy of Mandos in his footnote before mentioning Andreth and her prophecy concerning Túrin and Ancalagon. The first citation ends,

Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.
​

“the Great Wrack” is the Dagor Dagorath. Of the (at least) six references CJRT makes, only this one seems to reference dragons (“drakes”), and none of the others mention Ancalagon at all until the (as I count them) seventh and last. The paragraph you cite reads in whole,

In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Bëor: Túrin will “return from the Dead” before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term “Last Battle” is used shortly afterwards in this text, p. 371); but in all the early texts (the Quenta, IV.160; the Annals of Beleriand, IV.309, V.144; the Quenta Silmarillion, V.329) it was Eärendil who destroyed Ancalagon.
​

Since “Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term ‘Last Battle’ is used shortly afterwards in this text, p. 371),” I turned back 4 pages to page 371, where I read,

For after the Last Battle and the overthrow of Morgoth, when the Valar gave to Elros and Elrond a choice…
​

Correct me if I’m wrong, but “the Last Battle” is the end of the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, not the Dagor Dagorath at the end of the world. I find no other reference anywhere to Túrin Turambar’s having participated in the War of Wrath. Do you? So does this prophecy of Andreth refer to the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, an event in the (literary conceited) past of Arda, or to the Dagor Dagorath, an event in the future, indeed the very end, of Arda?

This doesn’t fit with the rest of the legendarium. It is disjoint to all the other pieces of the tale as we know them. It must be held spurious.

 

[Elthir]

Yes, as far as I know at this moment, this is the one source for Andreth's prophecy. But it can represent a change of mind in my opinion (Turin prophecy, War of Wrath).

Again, if I ever finish GNOME I can stop saying . . . unless there's something in GNOME to say otherwise!

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...But he would "return from the dead"...

How this resurrection did take place should be assured first, like the case of Glofindel.