A question about the beings created by melkor in the siege of angband

[Turin_Turambar]

According to all sources, trolls were created by Morgoth at the end of the first age or before the end of the first age. The part and battle where the trolls are first mentioned in the Silmarillion and Middle-earth is the nirnaeth arnoediad. And the gothmog had a troll guards in this war. so trolls are not mentioned in the wars before nirnaeth arnoediad. my most curious thing is, were the trolls created during the siege of angband like the wargs? If trolls first appeared in the nirnaeth arnoediad there were trolls wargs and werewolves in wars like fall of gondolin, battle of tumhalad, fall of falas but were there not trolls wargs and werewolves in wars like first battle dagor-nuin-giliath and dagor aglareb?

 

[Ent]

created by Morgoth

I'll just remind this much, then shut up so others can respond.
Morgoth didn't create anything. He didn't have the capability. None of the Ainur 'created'.
There... enough Huornish Huffing on the subject. 😃

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I'll just remind this much, then shut up so others can respond.
Morgoth didn't create anything. He didn't have the capability. None of the Ainur 'created'.
There... enough Huornish Huffing on the subject. 😃

By creating I meant, that Morgoth created trolls and wargs by corrupting and distorting other races.

 

[Ent]

OK, OK.. I'll add one more thing:
1. The one 'connecting' factor among them all, is Sauron, always Morgoth's chief lieutenant.
2. Sauron maintained use of trolls all the way through the War of the Ring at end of the Third Age.
3. Sauron was always more cunning than Morgoth... said by Tolkien to even have been 'more effective than Morgoth' in all he accomplished.
4. Since we're speculating a bit, I see no reason to think either Morgoth or Sauron would have left behind such useful tools to the expansion of the shadow of darkness.

I vote "yes". Trolls were (probably) in play at all times.

(awaiting further evidence from loremasters...)

 

[Ent]

Morgoth created trolls and wargs by corrupting and distorting other races.

Yeah, I know. (I think I may have mentioned this before on another post, too.)

I'm just a bit of a 'stickler' for words... especially in the 'create' vs. 'make' arena, for a number of reasons.

It concerns me there are those who actually attribute the ability to 'create' to the Ainur, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
So when I see the word (mis)applied to what they do, I'm quick to correct.

PJ and Amazon (as well as numerous artists) have done enough to miscommunicate things Tolkien... we who know better should (in my view) do our best to make sure we don't proliferate the same errors (and more).

Sorry... I'm just a pest..!

 

[Amon Rudh]

Where does it say within the books that Morgoth or the Ainur could not create? For example according to the Silmarillion (or as far as I read it) Aule created the dwarves? Also, I am sure I have read within HOME (albeit my first read through) several times that Melkor created from his thought such things as Orcs and dragons.
I'd be genuinely interested to read again the passage which proves this not to be the case. I may be wrong of course as your knowledge is far greater than mine!

 

[d4rk3lf]

I think Trolls were created somewhere short after Ents.
I don't think if they are not mentioned, they didn't existed in the first battles, or even when elves first arrived in M.E.
From what I can remember from Silmarillion, Orome had to fight a lot's of nasty beasts and creatures while searching for the firstbornes... probably, many of them, even much tougher then Trolls.

Where does it say within the books that Morgoth or the Ainur could not create? For example according to the Silmarillion (or as far as I read it) Aule created the dwarves?

Books says it all the time.
The whole point of chapter when Aule created dwarves is to show that Ainur could not create, and only after Iluvatar intervention, the dwarves really get life (souls).

 

[Amon Rudh]

Cheers. I can see why multiple readings are advantageous LOL. I am still not sure why something has to have an autonomous soul to be 'created'. 🙂 In this context what is generally meant as creation? My view would be that Aule certainly brought Dwarves into existence as Morgoth did with Orcs. Make and create mean the same thing surely? Orcs seem pretty alive with no influence of Illuvatar.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Cheers. I can see why multiple readings are advantageous LOL. I am still not sure why something has to have an autonomous soul to be 'created'. 🙂 In this context what is generally meant as creation? My view would be that Aule certainly brought Dwarves into existence as Morgoth did with Orcs. Make and create mean the same thing surely? Orcs seem pretty alive with no influence of Illuvatar.

Tolkien was Christian, and Middle Earth also have an monotheistic God, so souls are a part of the living being (not just meat and flash). Soul is the essence of every living being.
It's not even similar case between Aule creation of dwarves, and Melkor creation of orcs .
Melkor created orcs by simply twisting elves with extreme torture, and who knows what else he did to them.
Aule created dwarves from the scratch, but only meat and flash, and they were like a robots, they didn't had a free will of their own, and would jump into the abyss if Aule have ordered them so.
Only after intervention of Illuvatar, dwarves had their own free will.

Yes, it's good to re-read , and that part with Aule and dwarves is pretty short in Simarillion.

 

[Ent]

Aule created the dwarves? Also, I am sure I have read within HOME (albeit my first read through) several times that Melkor created from his thought such things as Orcs and dragons.

Hhmmmm.... this keeps getting covered but doesn't seem to reach the target.

Aule did not 'create' the Dwarves. He 'made' them from existing earthy type materials. He was only able to 'animate' one at a time, and then not with 'life'. Eru 'created' them to be a people with their own life AFTER Aule was ready to smash them for his disobedience to Eru.

Melcor did not 'create' the Orcs or Dragons. He twisted them from Elves, large worms and other existing things.

Creation and mimicry are very different things.

Eru did not give the Ainur permission or power to 'create'. In fact, they were all limited in knowledge... even at the time they sang the song. (And frankly, still limited forever afterward as well.)

Eru gave them permission to 'adorn' his Themes. Not to create.
And NONE of it was 'created' until Eru said "let these things BE."

Only what was at the time He said "let these things "be" actually "became". From that point, all other things were just twistings and remakings and abusings to come up with 'other.' All using existing materials.

As Tolkien himself said he sub-created Middle-earth to be a largely Catholic work, it would not enter his mind to allow any other than the "God" of his sub-creation to be able to 'create'.

The text never shows us a 'creation' (which means bringing from nothing' in any case at any time any where.
The text repeatedly tells us new creatures were 'fashioned', 'molded', or 'bred'... or such as that.

We don't have a need to "prove the Ainur couldn't create." We have a need to prove they COULD. There is no text allowing for that. It is merest speculation.

 

[Ent]

and Middle Earth also have an monotheistic God,

Good on you lord d4rk3lf. You've got it.

 

[Amon Rudh]

I do struggle with godly creation myth as a concept but accept that Middle-earth is a world created (made? 🤣) with this as a basis. I wasn't after proof as such just pointers on relevant passages explaining the logic. Genuinely out of a desire to understand and follow the process. Perhaps I am being confused by HOME as there seem to be passages which are contradictory to the helpful comments above as I understood them and I took this to suggest the ideas were more flexible. I am sure as I read and reread the texts, I'll grasp the various threads and draw them together 🙂

 

[Amon Rudh]

The sort of thing I find contradictory are where e.g. Melkor creates dischord in the music. Surely here, he is creating against the will of Eru. To my mind it's also clear that Eru only changed Aule's creation to provide a place in the world for them. OK this may have been also giving them a soul, but Eru acknowledged that Aule had made them and didn't wish to otherwise change them.
Also HOME 5 suggests that Melkor created Orcs in mockery after seeing Elves, not from Elves. See extracts below. It's this sort of thing I find hard to reconcile with the above assertion.
I do find this all interesting and will be more impressive on future repeated readings.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Perhaps I am being confused by HOME as there seem to be passages which are contradictory to the helpful comments above

HOME is the sum of ALL Tolkien writings.
Many of the ideas Tolkien himself rejected.
For example, in the first drafts of Silmarillion, Balrogs were in hundreds, even thousands in numbers, and later Tolkien said he changed that, and Balrogs total number is "not bellow 3, and not above 7".

 

[Ent]

The sort of thing I find contradictory

With your permission, I'll come back to this a bit later, when I've time (and access to my home computer) to put some things together... and wrap in some quotes from Tolkien's literature.

There are some few things to be said about it but I think it's best to 'show' (as your post does) rather than just talk without 'source materials' on it in this case.

We Huorns retain (most of) our entish characteristics - .not necessarily being in a hurry among them.

 

[Amon Rudh]

Thanks Huorn. I'd be genuinely grateful. My 'challenges' are out of a desire to learn not being pedantic. I just don't like taking things at face value as this can lead to persistent misunderstanding. It may be of course that as I read and reread, I'll realise that I may have been asking daft questions.

 

[Vorondil]

I may have been asking daft questions.

We all do that sooner or later. Even I occasionally ask a daft question (if you can believe that)

 

[Ent]

I may have been asking daft questions.

Given Tolkien's inconsistency, I'm not sure there is a 'daft question'. Nor a 'daft answer.' (Though our "Misunderstanding Tolkien....." thread may seem to contradict the statement.

Thus my own obsession with understanding many, many things are 'speculative' at best. I may find, on the matter of Eru's allowance of Ainur to 'create', my current 'perspective' (not 'opinion,' these are different things) turns out to be incorrect. I just need to get back to the places I have felt it has been spoken to best, to present the 'why' of my perspective.

This with its reference you have provided is the first time I've seen it... and not being Elthir (or others) I can't yet explain it.

However, I DO know it conflicts with Aule's making of the Dwarves from stone, and his ability to only animate one at a time.
And Aule was THE master craftsman of all things of the earth, of which Morgoth only 'received a part' as he did of the powers of all the other Ainur.
So his ability to 'give it a heart' and have tons and tons of living Orcs roaming about is ... well... another inconsistency.

I suspect the passage was written earlier in his writings and abandoned later, as he refers to Gnomes here, which were abandoned as well.

he says some things about the Orcs in his Letters... and who knows, maybe we'll lern more after the new edition of Letters comes out in November with its over a hundred added items. This could help of course. (or hurt).

All that said, I'll be coming back to a few more spots in SIL as well...
"more at 11"

 

[Amon Rudh]

I'm so glad this has gravitated to a sound and reasonable debate. So often things go awry when people challenge views of others, one reason I try to provide evidence via actual published text (in official Tolkien books). If you didn't know, the passages I posted were from HOME 5 The Lost Road and Other Writings. Of course things possibly change again in HOME 10 or 11.

 

[d4rk3lf]

that I may have been asking daft questions.

It's not daft questions bro.
You're asking good questions.

What I think you are doing wrong, is taking as a reference a whole HOME opus, and HOME is pretty much everything Tolkien written about M.E.

Only Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are released under Tolkien approval, so these are only books were we could be certain that is LORE 100%.
Silmarillion is released under the careful observation of whole HOME stuff under Tolkien beloved son Christopher, and he chooses only the segment that he thought that are most completed, and most likely to be Tolkien final choice.
I personally adore Christopher, and I think Tolkien couldn't have better son to sort out all of his work, with more care and attention, and love, and Silmarillion is my favorite book of all time.
In terms of Lore accuracy, I personally put Silmarillion to 80-90%, and it's maximum score that Christopher could have done, given what amount he had to process, and the fact that Tolkien died before he could make final decisions about many stuff.

One of my friend said once: "if Tolkien lived another 20-30 years, he would still not finish Silmarillion", and I believe it's truth, and it's really sad that this creative mind didn't lived, at least 350 years longer.
But since I have similar belief as professor, I believe that he is still writing and improving his world in afterlife, and I believe that once we left this world, we might get a chance to enjoy extended Silmarillion, and all our questions will be resolved.

Now, let's get back to your initial questions, and the main was: "Can Ainur create living stuff from nothing"?
This is one of the questions that I think is fully resolved, because in Silmarillion there is a several times mentioned that Morgoth couldn't create anything. If you want me to find you exact quote, let me know, and I'll do it (even it's very common known thing (and this is why I didn't bother to search exact quote).
The WHOLE story about Aule and the dwarves, in Silmarillion, is there to show us that Ainurs are not capable of creating living beings.
I am not 100% sure, but I think even in the LOTR, in the chapter "Shadow of the past", Gandalf tells Frodo that Sauron is not capable to create anything (same as his master).

Sorry for the long reply (and my bad english), I just wanted to make my thoughts clear, and when I write you before, because of ongoing work, I couldn't find the time to write detailed answer, and I didn't know you wanted a detailed explanation.

Of course, all above is just my personal opinion.