A Ticket to the Blessed realm

[Saermegil]

In LoTR we are told that frodo is able to depart for the Blessed Realm because Arwen chose not to and gave unto him her ticket or whatever it was.
But then how come Bilbo is allowed to go with Frodo? One of Elrond's sons perhaps? Or is an half-elf allowing someone to go at his stead unnesesarry? Could Olorin arrange something?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

In a footnote to Letter 246, JRRT wrote:

"It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not
of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any
except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and
any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct
communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to
become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first
thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her
renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with
Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or at the landing."

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Then how could Gimli (not confirmed to have gone, but it is a big possibility) and Sam get over to the Blessed Realm, if they were mortals? I never knew they had need of a ticket of sorts, I figured all Ring bearers went to the Blessed Realm.

 

[Niniel]

The Valar decide who they admit to the Blessed Realm. So if anyone comes to them who they think it worthy of being allowed, because he has done great thingsand suffered mcuh, they allow him to enter. Especially when he has someone to speak for him and plead his case to the Valar. Gimli of course had Legolas to do it (also it would have been the greatest proof of the enmity between Elves and Dwarves being ended if he was admitted). Sam had many people to speak for him; Frodo, who was already there, of indeed he was still alive, and Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond.

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

I would think Galadriel would speak on the dwarf's behalf as well. I still dont like the whole ticket thing, I much prefer Niniel's explanation- simpler and more consistent. I recall someone mentioning Gollum, that if he had survived, they would have taken him to the Blessed Realm to heal his corruption.

 

[elf_queen]

I don't believe that you need a ticket to go the blessed realm. Likewise, I don't believe that an elf could walk up to anyone on the street and say, "Hey, do you want my ticket to Valinor? Because I'm not going." (Please don't say that that would never happen, it's just a hypothetical.) I too believe that the Valar could decide to admit whoever they thought was worthy.

 

[Saermegil]

What i think is that Gandalf arranged for the ring-bearers (and Gimli?) to be able to depart to the Blessed Realm. He must have had a good reason though, and I think an elf( a noble one, such as Arwen) making a plea for that person couldn't hurt.

 

[redline2200]

I have no proof to back this up, but it has always been my personal belief that those that were in the Fellowship of the Ring had unofficial permission to go. I think that is why Gimli was allowed. I also think that if Pippin or Merry would have wanted to go then they would have been allowed because they were one of the nine. That makes it alot easier to explain the departure of Sam as well as Gimli.

 

[Starflower]

it is mentioned that Frodo and Bilbo were allowed to go because of the suffering they were caused by the Ring could not be healed in M-E, about Sam is said that "he was last seen by his daughter . it is said that he went over the Tower HIlls and into the Havens" but we do not know if he actually did go to the West, which he would have surely had the right to do as he also bore the Ring in Mordor. The right for the non-elves going seems to have been inexplicably linked to the RIng, so I would not think Merry and Pippin had any chance of going. As for Gimli... it does say in the appendices that when Legolas built a ship after Aragorn's death, Gimli followed because he would not be parted from his friend, but the story does not tell if they were succesful....

 

[Flammifer]

Starflower, this quote seems to indicate that Samwise did pass over the Sea:

The Lord of the Rings: Appendix B, "The Tale of Years", "Later Events Concerning the Fellowship"

1482: Death of Mistress Rose, and wife of master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he give the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.

Also, I would offer this reason for the Hobbits Bilbo, Frodo and Samwise being allowed into the Blessed Realm:

The War of Wrath, in which Morgoth's armies were utterly defeated and then captured, was led by the Maia Eonwe (who was Manwe's herald). Eonwe was, therefore, an emmissary from the Blessed Realm.

During the War of Wrath all Morgoth's forces were destroyed, except for Morgoth, a few Balrogs, Dragons and Orcs, and of course, most importantly, Sauron.

Eonwe made the glaring mistake of not capturing the arguably the most powerful Maia Sauron, another whom should have been chained and cast out beyond the confines of the World (if he was not destroyed in the War of Wrath).

If Eonwe had not left in such a hurry after Melkor was chained, he would have captured Sauron, or destroyed him. This would have meant no downfall of Numenor or Last Alliance. It would have meant that basically none of the terrible things that happened during the Second and Third Ages would have happened. It would have meant no Ring of Power!

It can be considered, therefore, that it was Eonwe's mistake that led to the Hobbits ever having to suffer bearing the Ring in the first place. And a mistake of Eonwe is a mistake of the Valar, indeed all who participated in the War of Wrath (The Valar, the Maiar, the Vanyar, the Teleri and the Noldor) are partly responsible. So basically all the Ainur were accountable.

I think that the Valar wanted to attone for this mistake by giving all the Ring-bearers the chance to heal the hurts that the Valar were responsible for. It was their obligation to do this. If Sauron had been captured, none of this would have happened, and it was the Valar's responsibility to account for Sauron. They did not do this.

So I think that the Hobbits being allowed to go to the Blessed Realm was something that the Valar had to permit.

 

[redline2200]

Originally posted by Starflower
The right for the non-elves going seems to have been inexplicably linked to the RIng

I agree 100%. But seeing how it was called The Fellowship of the Ring , i think it could be said that Merry and Pip were linked to the ring. I realize they weren't bearers of it, but neither was Gimli and he apperently went to Aman. The argument could be made that Legolas stuck his neck out and said something on Gimli's behalf, but I don't think that the opinion of one Sindarin prince would sway the Valar. I think that if Gimli had not been in the Fellowship then his entrance into Aman would have been denied (as was Amandil's in the second age).

 

[Inderjit S]

It was Galadriel, not Legolas who was said to have swayed the opinion of the Valar so that Gimli could be let in Valinor.

 

[Saermegil]

It wouldn;t be so hard for a dwarf to be accepted into Valinor. I think Aule could be convinced quite easily.

 

[Flammifer]

Yes, I think that's possible actually Saermegil, but the Blessed Realm was no place for mortals, so only very special mortals were let in.

Originally posted by Inderjit S
It was Galadriel, not Legolas who was said to have swayed the opinion of the Valar so that Gimli could be let in Valinor.

That may be true, but her reasoning probably would have been something along the lines of "See what love exists between this Dwarf and this Elf?" So Legolas was instrumental in Gimli being allowed into Aman also.

I think there is merit in what redline is saying - it was probably also important that Gimli was in the Fellowship.

On the matter of the Hobbits, I think it was the Valar's responsibility to let the Hobbits into Aman (not that I'm desparate for you to read my longer post that's above or anything...... )

 

[Inderjit S]

That may be true, but her reasoning probably would have been something along the lines of "See what love exists between this Dwarf and this Elf?" So Legolas was instrumental in Gimli being allowed into Aman also.

I never said that wasn't so. redline said "The argument could be made that Legolas stuck his neck out" implying that it was Legolas who obtained the grace from the Valar. My post was in relation to that post, in which I think redline erred, by saying it was Legolas who obtained the grace for Gimli to go to Aman, it wasn't it was Galadriel.

(Ah...I hate to come off as a pedant!)

 

[Flammifer]

My apologies, Inder, I took your post out of context.

And about appearing a pedant, it's difficult to avoid when you're correcting someone......so don't worry about it!

 

[redline2200]

Originally posted by redline2200
The argument could be made that Legolas stuck his neck out and said something on Gimli's behalf, but I don't think that the opinion of one Sindarin prince would sway the Valar.

I understand what you were trying to say Inderjit , but I think my quote was taken out of context as well. The reason i said that is so if anyone tried to pull the "legolas convincing the Valar" theory on me then i could already have something said about it, so i went on later to say that i don't think legolas could sway the Valar (i'm not even so sure about Galadriel myself, but that is another topic )

 

[Flammifer]

It certainly is another topic, but it's related to this thread redline, and seeing as this thread it probably not going to go much further than where it's at now I'm sure it would be OK if you posted your views on why Galadriel could/couldn't sway the Valar. I for one am interested to see them.

 

[redline2200]

Well thank you.
But to tell you the truth, I wrote that post at like 12:30 in the morning last night, and now that I am awake, I don't know if I agree with myself anymore. My argument was weak and I am renouncing that statement. Thank you for your curiosity though, sorry for killing the thread.

 

[Saermegil]

No hard feelinds there redline. I know how it is late at night or early in the morn. And maybe the thread is not dead yet. We will see!