About 🧝elves after having children

[Ricardo]

I was reading a bit about elves in the wiki. And I think there are some inaccuracies, but I don't know how to edit or suggest editions.

I haven't read it in deep but one detail called my attention. It says that after having children, elves are not interested in sex anymore.

To my knowledge, Tolkien never used the word "sex", what is said is that they are no longer interested in procreating and usually have few children because breeding and raising elf children take a lot out of both parents. The cases of multiple children are rare (e.g. Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Finwe) for that reason.

But Tolkien never says their marital life changes. Elf marriages are for ever (and I mean really forever), I can't think that such an important part of their relationship would be forsaken. They do grow more interested in more spiritual matters and things like music, poetry, but one thing doesn't exclude the other.

It also says that the difference between male and female elves are in their reproductive organs, I think it goes way beyond that. Female elves are like women, male elves are like men, as similar and different as human males and females.

There are female elf warriors of course (not many) but also female human warriors (e.g. Eowyn), that doesn't take anything aways from their femininity.

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

Honestly, I think whoever originally wrote a good portion of the Wikis here on TTF did not really know what they were talking about. I have found many glaring errors in the character pages, so I would not be surprised if you found another error.

 

[Ent]

Thanks for bringing this forward.
Our Wiki does still retain some inaccuracies from the past.
The site has a Wiki Mod, as well as the Admins who know how make corrections. In addition, there is a (dormant) Wiki Writing Team still hanging in the wings.

Many of the Wiki articles were originated back in the dark ages, by a group hired from outside as I understand it, for whom English may have even been a 2nd language.

Our hope is the membership will actively participate in its improvement. Either by making suggestions, pointing out errors, or actively participating. (Any member is able to make corrections to the Wiki, which are then submitted to the Admin team for review.)

Should there be any interest, feel free to PM any admin, or the wiki mod.

(You MAY consider bypassing @Squint-eyed Southerner if you wish... he likes to disclaim all knowledge of how to deal with the Wiki in spite of the facts..!)

The current Wiki mod has long been an advocate of setting up and continuing a "Wiki Improvement Team" - which has been done with a certain degree of success - however, "life" intervenes, interest fades, and new participation is difficult to incite.

Thwack - into the membership's court(s).

 

[Ent]

p.s. - @Ricardo - if you would be kind enough to provide the title of the specific article in view, I will let the current Wiki mod know about the issue, and see if we can get the article reviewed.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

(You MAY consider bypassing @Squint-eyed Southerner if you wish... he likes to disclaim all knowledge of how to deal with the Wiki in spite of the facts..!)

or of the Discord

 

[Ashley]

p.s. - @Ricardo - if you would be kind enough to provide the title of the specific article in view, I will let the current Wiki mod know about the issue, and see if we can get the article reviewed.

It appears to be the main page about the race of elves, linked here: Elves.
Looking through it myself, there do seem to be several inaccuracies, at least according to what I know about the subject (which isn't all that much, so I may be wrong).

 

[Ent]

Thank you @Ashley. Feel free to point out any and all inaccuracies felt/found, along with comments/suggestions.
OR, ask for some training on how to interact with the Wiki yourself, if so interested.
PMs would be fine. Staff will help.
If our objective here is 'learning Tolkien and his Middle-earth', (having fun along the way), wiping out inaccuracies should be at the forefront of our intent for the value of the forum. To ourselves, and others. (Or so it would seem to Ent, anyway.)

 

[Ent]

P.S. - For any member wanting to edit Wiki entries for consideration, here's what you do.

1. Go to the Wiki entry.
2. Click on the "edit" button seen here (circled in red)....

3. Panic for a hot minute, because you've just changed to a different looking screen.
4. Calm down, because you realize it's just opened the text up in a window/way you can edit it.
5. Make your changes.
6. Scroll to the bottom.
7. Click the "Save" button.

Your changes will be automatically passed into a queue where Staff - (Especially @Squint-eyed Southerner) are dedicated to reviewing what's been done, validating/adjusting/whatevering, then 'approving' it so it becomes an edited, corrected, improved, more accurate training element for lovers of Tolkien's work.

Have fun. Participation encouraged. (Especially by Squint.)

 

[Vardarianna]

(You MAY consider bypassing @Squint-eyed Southerner if you wish... he likes to disclaim all knowledge of how to deal with the Wiki in spite of the facts..!)

That is funny! 😆

I have edited a couple wikis I read for not making sense. I think they were approved too. I'll try and have a look at more of them as I have time.

 

[Ent]

I have edited a couple wikis I read for not making sense. I think they were approved too. I'll try and have a look at more of them as I have time.

Wonderful. Staff will be most appreciative, (especially Squint), and site users will be both benefitted and blessed by the participation and help.

 

[Vorondil]

I was reading a bit about elves in the wiki. And I think there are some inaccuracies, but I don't know how to edit or suggest editions.

I haven't read it in deep but one detail called my attention. It says that after having children, elves are not interested in sex anymore.

To my knowledge, Tolkien never used the word "sex", what is said is that they are no longer interested in procreating and usually have few children because breeding and raising elf children take a lot out of both parents. The cases of multiple children are rare (e.g. Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Finwe) for that reason.

But Tolkien never says their marital life changes. Elf marriages are for ever (and I mean really forever), I can't think that such an important part of their relationship would be forsaken. They do grow more interested in more spiritual matters and things like music, poetry, but one thing doesn't exclude the other.

It also says that the difference between male and female elves are in their reproductive organs, I think it goes way beyond that. Female elves are like women, male elves are like men, as similar and different as human males and females.

There are female elf warriors of course (not many) but also female human warriors (e.g. Eowyn), that doesn't take anything aways from their femininity.

I would be happy to fix the errors in this wiki entry; unfortunately, I don't know much about the Fair Folk. However, there are a few members of the Wiki Writers Team; who know quite a bit more about elves. @Maedhros_Nelyafinwë, @Glorfindel Goldtress, @Fingon_Findekáno, @Mairon the Admirable, perhaps one of you could have a look at this article?

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

I would be happy to fix the errors in this wiki entry; unfortunately, I don't know much about the Fair Folk. However, there are a few members of the Wiki Writers Team; who know quite a bit more about elves. @Maedhros_Nelyafinwë, @Glorfindel Goldtress, @Fingon_Findekáno, @Mairon the Admirable, perhaps one of you could have a look at this article?

I could try to find some time for it after I get back from my Civil War reenactment on Sunday.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I remember reading recently about this, actually, though I'm not sure how accurate that text was either.

Basically, childbirth takes from the spirit of the parents, but sex can also physically tire them at that moment. Now, I believe like female humans, elf maidens also reach puberty when they get their period, which also probably means they have something like menopause.
But humans, given their mortal lives, have a specific fertility window which can start from the age of 8 to late 50s at best, so we have a specific date. Now, for elf maidens things aren't quite as certain.

Some of the more known cases of elf maidens having children later in life are the granddaughters of Finwë, actually, and of course there's Lúthien.
Elves generally married very soon and had children probably right after their majority at 100. So we know their fertility window would start some times then, if it's something biological induced.

But we have Aredhel who married and had a son way past her first millennium. Lúthien was past her third millennia when she had Dior and Galadriel was perhaps even older, tho we don't have an exact date for when Celebrian was born.

So, puberty hits off this fertility window, but it doesn't have an exact ending point.
My own theory is that once the mother (mostly) feels like she can't spare more of her spirit for having children, the menopause happens. Because Míriel tells Finwë that she won't be bearing him any more children even before she had gotten so weak she wanted to pass into Mandos, and this saddened Finwë.

So there's the pleasurable aspect of sex after they're done having children, perhaps, but there won't be any more kids.

I hope this makes sense. Also, these are all my own speculations based on the stuff I've read. Wait for other, more knowledgeable members to share their thoughts too.

 

[Ent]

though I'm not sure how accurate that text was either.

An exceptional statement, pertaining to wisdom and pointing toward growth..!! Veracity of source must be considered in everything at all times..!

This thread, too, has just added another item to my 'research' list - and points out whoever undertakes a revision of the Wiki article needs to be careful in the doing.
However it unfolds, it's gonna be fun..!

 

[Ricardo]

I remember reading recently about this, actually, though I'm not sure how accurate that text was either.

Basically, childbirth takes from the spirit of the parents, but sex can also physically tire them at that moment. Now, I believe like female humans, elf maidens also reach puberty when they get their period, which also probably means they have something like menopause.
But humans, given their mortal lives, have a specific fertility window which can start from the age of 8 to late 50s at best, so we have a specific date. Now, for elf maidens things aren't quite as certain.

Some of the more known cases of elf maidens having children later in life are the granddaughters of Finwë, actually, and of course there's Lúthien.
Elves generally married very soon and had children probably right after their majority at 100. So we know their fertility window would start some times then, if it's something biological induced.

But we have Aredhel who married and had a son way past her first millennium. Lúthien was past her third millennia when she had Dior and Galadriel was perhaps even older, tho we don't have an exact date for when Celebrian was born.

So, puberty hits off this fertility window, but it doesn't have an exact ending point.
My own theory is that once the mother (mostly) feels like she can't spare more of her spirit for having children, the menopause happens. Because Míriel tells Finwë that she won't be bearing him any more children even before she had gotten so weak she wanted to pass into Mandos, and this saddened Finwë.

So there's the pleasurable aspect of sex after they're done having children, perhaps, but there won't be any more kids.

I hope this makes sense. Also, these are all my own speculations based on the stuff I've read. Wait for other, more knowledgeable members to share their thoughts too.

I don't think elf women have a menopause, but I think that probably they only get pregnant if they want to, this is just a guess because I don't think Tolkien ever talked about this.

After they reach full maturity at age 100, elves don't visibly age anymore, or at least, they do it very slowly. I don't think the experience any reduction of physical abilities related to age, including their reproductive organs.

While it's custom that elves marry shortly after they turn 100, that wasn't the case in Middle Earth, mostly because of the fighting. Besides the already mentioned Galadriel, Aredhel and Luthien we have Idril and Arwen.

 

[Elthir]

When The Nature of Middle-Earth was published, some Quendian matters that formerly seemed to be somewhat "known". . . became. . . arguably more complicated, let's say.

Or "easier" (!) in a sense, depending upon one's approach to the texts (and the dating of the texts).

For example, at least within my approach, I'm not that keen on "mixing" the NOME texts titled Elvish Life-Cycles 1969 with various other texts written c. 1959, or even one dated 1965 (Elvish Ages and Numenorean) -- especially when the 1969 texts introduce a notable (in my opinion) conceptual change.

Thus, given the lateness factor, and given that none of these texts were published by JRRT himself, for myself, I can glean what there is to glean within the "new" (and later) 1969 conception.

Not everyone will take that path of course. But if so, do any of the earlier dates, numbers, details, still hold for the 1969 conception? Even from the 1965 text? I don't know. I'm not even sure if trying to jam in anything from the earlier texts is necessarily what Tolkien would have done!

That said, in my opinion, a WIKI about this stuff could work if it's:

A) Detailed and descriptive, from a story-external perspective.

A different attempt might be tougher:

B) Somehow arriving at a story-internal WIKI, given the various accounts (again, sometimes written years apart) of Tolkien trying to make stuff work.

C) Or something of both A and B!

I don't mean to rain on any WIKI parades here, but. . . good luck!

Ah, all this in my opinion

Who knows, maybe a WIKI about
these particular Quendian details
will be easier than I think!

Edit: and of course, if it's going to be limited to being about the lives of Elves after having children (as I just noticed in the thread title), well, that could narrow things!

Cough. Oops!

 

[Ent]

And THIS is why there's an @Elthir among us.
All this information shall thwacked in the direction of the Wiki Mod, to see if the challenge will be accepted, attempted, acknowledged, or just atrophied.*

We shall see what happens.

(Unless of course, one of you aspiring members of an updating mind care to step forward, and take the project on.)


*(Atrophied in its meaning of 'neglected' or 'lost through lack of use' for any who may be unfamiliar with the breadth of the word.)

 

[Elthir]

If it's any help (and I'd think it would be), our own Tar-Elenion has done a detailed descriptive look at the various Elven ageing texts from NOME (and beyond), which often include, or can possibly relate to, details about Elven maturation, marriage, parenthood, and so on.

The 🧝Elven Ageing Variants

These are the variant textual descriptions/explanations of the rate(s) at which Elves age. I have attempted to arrange them in what seems to be a chronological order. As most of texts seem to be dated to 1959, this is somewhat difficult, I thus ordered them in what seems to be a progression from...

thetolkien.forum

I too once tried to keep track of Tolkien's ideas here (and his math). . .

. . . but I got dizzy and fell asleep.

🐾

 

[Ent]

 

[Ricardo]

One thing about the many conflictive Tolkien's writings.

We cannot by any means even attempt to get into his creative process.

but

Some of the changes he made were because he wasn't happy with the original, totally under the creative process (he created something he didn't like and he changed it).

But a big deal of the changes were motivated by inconsistencies he found, some times the names, some times the dates, some time events.

On that note, you can use narrative consistency as a guide, while we cannot create as Tolkien, were are qualified to find inconsistencies and select the versions that better aligns with the story.

Take for example the Gil-Galad parentage. In the Silmarillion, CTplaced him as Fingon's son.

But then he found later writings by his father were he was placed as Orodreth's son.

I think the main reason was that if Gil-Galad was Fingon's son, he should have succeeded his father as high-king. Putting him under Orodreth made him the legitimate heir after Turgon's dead.

Yet, that created a plot problem at the Silmarillion because the whole story of Fingon sending him with Cirdan would no longer apply, and it didn't make sense Orodreth doing the same (he wasn't close with Cirdan and he would have sent Finduilas also). But this is a relatively minor plot and could have been easily altered to accomodate the more important topic of the succession.

Not easy, but with Tolkien, especially first age, sometimes you need to connect the dots.