Are Men "guests" on Arda?

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Ok, big problem in the evolution idea. Evolution is the exact opposite of the scientific law of entropy which states that everything goes from a state of order to state of disorder.

First of all what is considered a scientific law now, may be disproved later on. I am not sure if entropy is even law though...it may be theory....to me there isn't a heck of a lot of difference really. Only that a law SEEMS to have been proven.

The world is slowly falling apart as scientific studies have shown. Society is falling apart.

Even if one observes that society is falling apart who knows what it will end up coming to before it ends? Perhaps something great. Though, I do not hold my breath waiting for this.

If the law of entropy is true than evolution can't be because it says that we are going from a state of disorder to a state of order.

Even is we are moving in the direction of disorder that does not mean that we are not evolving...for something to change (even from oder to disorder) it must adapt.

Also, where is there any proof that we evolved from apes? Where are the transitional forms?

I an not an anthropologist or any other ologist, however, to me the idea that we humans were once as apes makes perfect sense...If you can understand it as a system...a continual processs of adaption...then you will understand that evolution is something that just happens. It is not an event that took place awhile back wherein apes suddenly morphed into humans within the span of a day or even a thousand years.
In fact we can watch evolution of living creatures take place. If we look at insects with short lifespans we will see that even over 20 or so generations that the insects have changed.
We know this happens with viruses..which is why we have so many strains of the common cold, the flu...aids..and so forth.
It hapens with bacteria as well...which is why we are constantly making newer and stronger antibiotics. I do not know the stats right off the top of my head but if you look up the history of treatment of..say...the step or staph bacteria...you will see alarming numbers. A bacteria which was 99% killed by plain pencillin (sp?)...is now so strong that penicillin is baby food for them.
Go into a hospital....ask a nurse if you know one...
But I think most people will agree that bacteria are evolving...and need not ask a nurse.
Is these little guys are adapting, why wouldn't we?
The planet is full of species and subspecies, subspecies are those who broke away from the originally group and went into a diffferent environment in which they were required to adapt different to.

As far as I know the very few that have been found have been fakes or are ludicrous guesses on the parts of scientists who are desperate to find proof for their theories so that they don't have to admit that there is an intelligant creator.
~Ariana

There have been fakes. As I said above it is a system..and a system is more believable to me because it explains it's self. It holds together and makes sense.
Some (not all) who speak against theories of evolution plain do not even understand the meaning of the word. Let alone grasp how it would work.

 

[Dr. Ransom]

Yes I know Confusticated, I was just teasing you. I'm feeling mischevious today... Isn't it wierd how no matter what we talk about, eventually this forum gets into the good old Creationism vs. Evlolutionism debate

Just two new thoughts, than I'll quit.

1# The three most important people to shape the 20th century were Karl Marx, Fruod (spell?), and Darwin. Marx and Fruod have already met the block, Darwin is next. We are already starting to see the turnaround in the scientific comunity. I think the theory of evolution has maybe another 30-40 years at most, than they'll come up with something new.

2# (this is for discing the importance of facial hair ) If facial hair is just random evolution, than why don't you have it too? (Joke, not ment to be scientific)
Good night all.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

In Letter 152, Tolkien wrote to Hugh Brogan, "Middle-earth is just archaic English for oikoumene/ecumene, the inhabited world of men .
"In Letter 183, Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King , "The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd>middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumene ,the abiding place of Men , the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell)."

This is to turn this discussion back to the track, although the girls have provided exciting theories.

The above quote I provided in order to calm down my own thoughts of whether ME = our world, or not. Well, a lot of you have firmly stated it is NOT. But if the above is taken into consideration (and I'm willing to do so), then I feel free to think and speak on the present topic having in mind ME = our Earth, which STILL is "the abiding place of Men ".

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Why would we have this exact conversation we have now, if there was not such role for us? Why would nature (if we assume an evolutionary process) provide us with the procedures to think about our role and our future if we didn't have one?

We had/have a role....but I do not know about purpose.
Our role was, as far as I can figure...(and that isnt far ) the same as all other living things on this planet:to function as part of the ecosystem.
In short, be part of the food chain. To devour and fertilize....keep things fresh and healthy....Or I'm talking nonsense?

We have instead, taken on another role. Something like a bully of the planet. "give me your lunch money! I'll beat you up anyhow!" This may lead to nothing but disctruction...and if so, then I think it could be said that we had no purpose. Unless it was to cause distruction..and that is a whole other thread right there.
But if we end up making something better of ourselves or in harmony with the other life on Earth then I would admit that we might have had a purpose.
Maybe we have one, maybe we do not.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
What is even more intriguing to me is that..... sometimes I do feel as if we are expected, designed and believed to do something very important, yet not HERE!

Well, yes, but... it seems that it's a long way to go for mankind until we would be ready or such a task...

Originally posted by Isildur
Well, if we came from apes, or evolution, why aren't we evolving right now today?

That step took us roughly a million years, which is - compared to a couple of thousand years of "advanced civilizations" - a rather long timespan. Who could tell whether we are evolving at the moment or not? but anyway IMO there exist a few indications that we are...

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Ok, big problem in the evolution idea. Evolution is the exact opposite of the scientific law of entropy which states that everything goes from a state of order to state of disorder.

Puleeeezeee....
The whole concept of Entropy, IIRC, derives directly from the Laws of Thermodynamics, which are basic principles of physical chemistry. Evolution is a biological concept, and if applied to mankind and civilization a philosophical or "anthroposophical" concept. And both concepts observe very different timespans. The cooling of the universe due to the increasing entropy is a process which has a timespan in the magnitude of billions of years. Evolution has a timespan in the magnitude of millions of years.

Comparing or relating those two concepts may be possible, but to use one of those concepts to verify or falsify the other does IMO not make much sense. To me this appears as if one would say: It cannot be that a worm grows in an apple because we all know that the apple will rot someday. Or: It cannot be that mankind develops on earth for we all know that the sun will cease to shine someday and hence the earth will vanish... Or - like my son uses to say: "It makes no sense to clean up my room, according to the increasing entropy disorder will win anyways..."

------------------
Well, anyhow just another thought - even though it is a rather pessimistic view:

Lets assume that mankind is a product of evolution (the interaction of mutation and selection), and evolution is still in process. Mankind - which origined through a process of mutation - is now destroying itself and the environment it is living in. This could now be only part of the process of selection. And in a couple of million years from now a new product of mutation could be the dominant race on earth...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

From the UT: And Galadriel said: "Where now is the Stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil is gone who made it." "Who knows?" said Olorin. "Surely," said Galadriel, "they have passed over Sea as almost all fair things beside.And must Middle-earth then fade and perish for ever?" "That is its fate ," said Olorin

+

Walter Lets assume that mankind is a product of evolution (the interaction of mutation and selection), and evolution is still in process. Mankind - which origined through a process of mutation - is now destroying itself and the environment it is living in. This could now be only part of the process of selection. And in a couple of million years from now a new product of mutation could be the dominant race on earth ...

Well, just a though.....perhaps born by my love for ScF.
If...Or rather WHEN the Earth meets its "fate", the humans will have long ago found other places to live in - somewhere in the vast "halls of Eru". However the conditions there will certainly not be as on this planet. So, with the help of the everlasting ability to adapt to an environment, mankind will change and this will result in new mutated forms of former humans. How will they look like? Who can tell!

My two cents for the evolution discussion (although I have NO idea if I used this expression properly! But I've seen it so often and I guess the meaning..... I'm learning )

 

[Walter]

Unfortunately the species best adopted to given conditions has in the past proven to be the most vulnerable to changes of those conditions. This was probably the reason why the dinosaurs could not survive when the conditions of their environment changed significantly. In their case this was probably caused by a dramatic increase of cosmic radiation after the breakdown of the the earth's magnetic-field (possibly after the impact of a large meteorit) which led to a rapid increase of mutation-effects. Usually the species with a higher generation-turnover can adopt best to new environment conditions.


Could be the insects get their chance to rule the world next time something like this happens again...

 

[Galdor]

You guys are right, God cannot be proven to exist by science, but on the other hand, nether can evolution. Both views must be taken by faith, sense there is no way to prove ether one by the scientific method. The difference is that there is a whole lot more evidence to support that God exist than that we all evolved from apes. I find the amount of faith you evolutionist have amazing, I mean you guys have enough faith in your belief to think such a ridiculous(in my opinion) thing as saying that we evolved from apes.

 

[Maedhros]

I find the amount of faith you evolutionist have amazing, I mean you guys have enough faith in your belief to think such a ridiculous(in my opinion) thing as saying that we evolved from apes.

Isn't this a personal attack against all of the member who think that?
What makes your faith based "creationism" better than evolution? Creationism cannot be proven by scientific means, it is pure "mythology", it cannot be proven and cannot be taken as canon.
So, is the Cro-Magnon 1 just a myth then?

While the Cro-Magnon remains are representative of the earliest anatomically modern human beings to appear in western Europe, this population was not the earliest anatomically modern humans to evolve. The skull of Cro-Magnon 1 does, however, show the traits that are unique to modern humans, including the high rounded cranial vault with a near vertical forehead. The orbits are no longer topped by a large browridge. There is no prominent prognathism of the face.

 

[gate7ole]

Evolution is much misunderstood. The scientific facts that prove that we have evolved physically from the apes may be correct. But does it say that we are actually nothing more than evolved apes? I disagree.
The critical point is to understand that the difference from the apes is not just a 10% change in DNA. It has to do with the ability of humans to think about philosophical aspects. This is what elevates the role of mankind in the world. Dolphins can think too, but their thinking process can is limited in taclile subjects. The ability of humans to expand their field of thought in cosmogonic and philoshophical aspects, cannot be explain by any evolutionary process. We did not just become more clever apes. We became beings that concern about their afterlife and the purpose of their existence. I can only explain this change as an intervention of a divine being, during the evolutionary process. Thus, I adopt the opinion that Mankind was "meant" to exist in the world, for whatever purpose the creator has planned and that we are not just guests in Earth. It is our field of progress and existence.

 

[Galdor]

Isn't this a personal attack against all of the member who think that?

No,I do not mean that to be a personal attack against anyone. I was simply stating my opinion on it and do not mean it to be offence in any way. Look at it from my point of view, I see God's handy work in everything around me, which is why I think evolution is a ridiculous theory. But you are free to your opinion just as I am free to mine, and I respect your opinion, even though I think your very wrong. And as I said though nether can be completely proven by science, there is way more scientific and historical proof that God exist and that the Bible is also true. How can you explain the accuracy of the Bible, a book tat was written over a period of 1600yrs and had over 50 independent authors? As to the Cro-Magnon,

Evolutionist now admit that the Cro-Magnons were identical to modern humans although, like the Neanderthals, they often had larger brains than the average person today. Far from being "subhuman," they were merely a tribe of people that often dwelled in caves and hunted bison. Today, Cro-Magnon man is classified as Homo sapiens sapiens, the same as humans today.

 

[Maedhros]

How can you explain the accuracy of the Bible

What accuracy is that?
Yes, the Cro-Magnon are classified as homo sapiens sapiens and yet they have certain differences from a homo sapiens from today.

I see God's handy work in everything around me, which is why I think evolution is a ridiculous theory.

And you're proof is where?

And as I said though nether can be completely proven by science, there is way more scientific and historical proof that God exist and that the Bible is also true

You are free to post it anytime.

 

[Ariana Undomiel]

I agree with Galdor. I mean take the human eye as an example. It is sooo complex that scientists are still discovering new things about it and is functions. Or how about the soul? Are you telling me that we are different from all the other animals on the planet with our feelings and emotions and that we got it all by chance. I mean even Einstein said that the more he studied and observed the universe the more he was convinced that there is an intelligent creator.

I would ask you, what real proof do you have that man evolved from apes? And what would you accept as evidence that God created the universe and that the Bible is true?

~Ariana

 

[Maedhros]

I would ask you, what real proof do you have that man evolved from apes?

I'm not an expert of the evolution theory, but I believe that both apes and men had a common ancestor.

And what would you accept as evidence that God created the universe and that the Bible is true?

Hmmmm. Statements from the bible that can be proven with facts and not faith. Simple

 

[Ariana Undomiel]

Ok, I will definately get some for you.

~Ariana

 

[Dr. Ransom]

NO NO No Ariana Undomiel! Please Please check your sources better next time!!! All this stuff was made up by a complete nut case. The same guy claims to have found the Ark of the Covanent. I don't have the exact link but you can read the entire story of his fraud in the Creation Ex Nelio magezine. If you want some good creation evidence, vist ICR.org. These guys are real scientist, not metal ward escapes. They might have the facts on this nut case too. Please let me know where you found his stuff so I can be better prepared for next time he suckers someone. There is NOTHING I dislike more than a dishonest fool who claims to be a creationist. Anyway, I have to go finish a book I'm reading by Augustine. ttyl, and sorry for ripping apart your post...

Ransom

 

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by Maedhros
What accuracy is that?

Galdor was saying that one form of accuracy can be found in the fact that it was written over a time period of about 1600 years, with over 50 authors, and not contradicting itself once. I personally find that amazing and a miracle of God.

Also, another thing. The Bible, if compared to history, it does not contradict that either. In fact, the Bible reinforces history.

-Flame