Are Ringwraiths immortal?

[Lhunithiliel]

They were once Men... Great kings of Men...

(quote - from the FOTR-movie, Aragorn at Bree, expalining to the four Hobbits about the ringwraiths)

So... What proof do we have that they are immortal if they were once MORTAL Men?
Now if you want me to remember about their tragic end at the destruction of the ring, I still see no firm evidence whether they died or not.
Let's see:

ROTK; "Mount Doo," :
...The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom....

That was their last action...and just a few moment later...

And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

Does this mean they died?
For after all, they were mortals once...
But...on the other hand, they were wraiths! Do wraiths die?

Tell me what you think of all that?

 

[FrankSinatra]

Well

I think they were entities tied solely to the ring, once the power of the ring was removed, one could say their 'soul' (inconceivable i know) was removed and thus they lived no longer.

But is there not a quote somwhere about Sauron himself remaining a permanent 'shadow' if the ring were destroyed?

 

[Arvedui]

I think that I have pondered the same question...
I tend to believe that they do not die, allthough it is a close call. The reason for this is mostly in the last part of the last sentence of this quote:

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.

From The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

IMO, this indicates that the Lord of the Nazgul, at least, would be heard again at some later time.
Still, I do not consider this as decisive evidense. Your quotes more than indicate that their immortality is bound to the One Ring.

Maybe it is just my wishful thinking that lead me to believe that they are indeed immortal?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I wouldn't compare Sauron's destiny to that of the wraiths, because after all - he was a Maia and they were mortals.
And Sauron's soul (or whatever he turned into after the destruction of the ring) might have gone wandering within the confines of Arda. For I do not expect him to break out into the Void to join his true Master, neither I expect Sauron to wish it so much!
So, I was wondering... What happened to the Nazgul? Their material form (whatever it was) was destroyed... But remembering the point that Men were the "priviledged" children of Eru, whose faith was to be decided only by him.... and that their souls went to places about which neither the Valar nor the Elves knew anything....
Where then did the souls of the wraiths go?
And in fact.... weren't they already just "spirits" and not physically shaped humans when they lived as Sauron's servants under the spell of the Ring?

Then, what happened to these spirits?

Wonders....wonders....

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Arvedui, we posted at one and the same time

You have a point there and I also think that in your quote there s even much evidence about the uncertain fate of the Nazgul.
After all, someone must have emitted that cry!

 

[Arvedui]

So the question then is what kind of "immortality-power" there was in the Nine Rings.

The way I see it, the immortality of the Ringwraiths is tied to either The One or The Nine. If we assume that immortality rests with The Nine, then they did not die unless those rings were also destroyed.

And I see no evidence that they were.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I would not say so!
How to expect some material piece of jewlry, no matter what "magic" it had, to be more powerful that Eru himself?
I'm saying this, because the Nazgul were Men, therefore, it was Eru who mastered their souls and fate after all and inspite of all the evil powers they had chosen to serve in M-e.
So, I was wondering what did the all-mighty do with the souls of these 9 mortals?

Or could it be that Melkor somehow had won them from Eru's authority? .... Though I doubt...

 

[Arvedui]

From The Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in the world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

Seems as if I have to change my stance a little: They had, as it seemed, unending life...
I can hardly read this in no other manner than that they did not have unending life, but were in fact mortal.

And I see no evidence that they were.

Well, it is a good thing that I can correct myself, before someone else does. From the same chapter:

And so indeed it has since befallen: the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; [...]

 

[Lantarion]

I'd say they had unending life as long as the Ring existed.

 

[Eriol]

I don't think any power besides Eru could destroy their fëar. They are probably wherever Morgoth worshippers are. (shudders). What their Rings conferred to them was action without matter -- their fëar were not constrained by the lack of a hröa. However, they paid for that with the loss of their free will to Sauron. After the Ring was destroyed, their fëar would be "released" from wraith-life and go to where other Men's souls go.

 

[Ithrynluin]

IMO, after the One Ring was destroyed, the spirits of the Nazgul were released from the thraldom of Sauron. So the wraiths do not DIE, because the spirit (fea) is indestructible.

Elves can refuse the summons of Mandos and can linger in Middle Earth.

Whether Men's spirits can refuse the summons (of Eru?) I do not know. If they can, then perhaps that explains Arvedui's quote 'and was never heard again in that age of this world.' Maybe the spirits of Men remain in Halls similar to those of Mandos, and their period of waiting depends upon their actions in life? According to that the Nazgul would wait for an enormous amount of time, but still their spirits would return one day (but not in that age of this world).

And so indeed it has since befallen: the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; [...]

How were the Seven and the Nine destroyed? Why not the Three? Because Sauron had no part in their making, as opposed to the Seven and the Nine (though the three were also made with Sauron's knowledge)?

 

[Elendil3119]

About the spirits of the Nazgul, I concur with your theory ithrynluin. I never got the impression that when the One Ring was destroyed, the Nazgul were completely annihilated, but that their spirits survived. Is there any possibility that these spirits went to join the other corrupted spirits (Melkor, Sauron) in the Void, or was that reserved for only Valar and Maiar?

 

[Elfarmari]

I don't have the exact quote here, but Gandalf says something about the bearer of the One Ring not dying, but not growing or obtaining life either, they are simply stretched, like Bilbo, like butter over too much bread, until they become mere shadows of what they once were, wraiths. This is at least as I have always pictured it. To me, the ringwraiths are bound to their rings, which Sauron probably held. I would think that since the Elven-rings lost their potency after the destruction of the One, the Nine would loose any power as well, causing old age to 'catch up' to the Nazgul immediately, an exponential increase of the aging Bilbo underwent after passing on the ring.

 

[Glomund]

The Nazgul die when they fly into the eruption of Mt. Doom after the ring is destroyed. The question of what happens after cannot be really answered, but I don't think they would go to the outer void, Melkor was set out there because he had the power to reform himself, and if his spirit was in the physical world could and would take shape again and again in order to rule the world. Sauron could also do this, and had done it, until the destruction of the ring which cost him all his power that had been put into it. And so he didn't go to the void either, I can't find the quote, but something was said about him becoming a formless shadow, gnawing the threads of his malice, but unable to take shape or grow. I would think that the souls of the 9 go to Mandos to endure whatever punishments the earned until Eru reveals his designs for the souls of men after the end of the world. However, reading these posts, i was struck by the qoute from the Nazgul kings demise. I recently reread the beginnings of the Return of the Shadow, Tolkiens barely started sequel, and it just hit me that perhaps the new enemy was the Nazgul king, who through his many years under Sauron had learned a way to extend his existence past the destruction of his body and the one ring

 

[BlackCaptain]

Basicaly, they are like Maiar. They are only wraiths; Spirits. They can take body forms, and the body forms can be destroyed, but the Ulairi would still be alive. They would just need a new body, although they are more fearsome when they can't be seen for some reason.

They can only exist as long as the Ring exists. They are the presence of the Ring. They represent the fear that goes along with it. So if the Ring is destroyed, their Wraith forms would be destroyed. Quite simple. They are very much like Maiar, but they do get destroyed. They didn't die, but they were destroyed, because they are the Ring. That's also why they're constantly drawn to it's presence.

 

[YayGollum]

I don't see why there's any confusion. Because they had their rings of power on, they were immortal. If they took them off or if the One Ring was destroyed, they would die since they're so achingly old. just like any other race in Tolkien's world, they had spirits that go places when they die. Human spirits don't naturally stick around. They obviously headed for whereever humans go when they die. Problem solved.

 

[Arvedui]

Hm...
A number of theories, loosely connected.

Because they had their rings of power on, they were immortal. If they took them off or if the One Ring was destroyed, they would die since they're so achingly old.

I don't know why, but I have the impression that when Sauron was regaining his strength again, he gathered the Nine Rings to himself. Therefore, the Nazgûl lived even if they didn't actually wear their rings. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (Or support me if I'm right)

How were the Seven and the Nine destroyed? Why not the Three?

I wish I knew as well!
At first I was sure that they weren't, until I re-read the last chapter of the Silmarillion. It really annoys me that the "how" is not stated anywhere. Except that it was known that some of the Seven were already destroyed, or eaten by Dragons, at the time of The War of the Ring.

As ithrynluin stated, their fëar is indestructible. But if we follow that reasoning a little further down that path, then all Men are immortal, aren't they?

And Glomund: I really like your theory!

 

[Eriol]

You have my axe

Oh, don't you want that? Oh well...

Anyway, you have my support -- I remember quite clearly that Sauron had gathered the Nine to himself. The quote is in the Council of Elrond, when Gandalf is proving that the Hobbit's Ring is the One Ring by exclusion through counting all of the other Rings. I can't provide it myself, though.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Elendil3119
Is there any possibility that these spirits went to join the other corrupted spirits (Melkor, Sauron) in the Void, or was that reserved for only Valar and Maiar?

Well, what a party they'd have then, a?!!!!

But I see a so far strongly supported line in favour of the rings. Many of you say that my "fellows" are immortal only because of the power of the rings they bore and that , if I'm correct, when the rings are destroyed their immortality ceases too.

But is it only me and Eriol who think that in fact the only true authority to have had real power over their souls was Iluvatar?!?
'Cause in the light of the overall concept T. presented in his writings concerning Men, it is obvious that no other creature in Arda could dispose of Men's fear(souls). So, it is then logical to think that neither Sauron (Maia) nor Mandos(Vala) or even Melko(another Vala, although mighty) could govern the Nazgul's final fate. How then to expect some "magical" ring could do it?!?
(of course, I would not start again the famous debate "The One Ring - sentient or no! )
Meaning that being mortals right from the start, they met the fate of all mortals...whatever it was, after they were released from the spell of the Ring (the One or/and each of the Nine). And from this moment on it was Eru who "controlled" the situation.

But then it leaves me wondering.... isn't there some discrepancy here?
I mean.... on one hand Eru says Men are mortal and he will deal with them (it's his business what exactly he did to them; we do not know). But on the other hand, we witness a Maia!! playing with Eru's creation changing the most essential feature!!! For Sauron succeeded in giving immortality and almost "Maiar"-features to mortals!!!
Then?

 

[Eriol]

I don't think Sauron gave them immortality, their spirits were already immortal. What I do think is that their spirits were able to somehow be kept on Arda by the power of the Rings, instead of leaving as other Men's souls. They were already dead by the time they became wraiths; or, in another way to put it, they had already abandoned their bodies.

Therefore, as soon as the Nine are rendered ineffectual, their souls depart.

There was no substance in a ringwraith body, as I see it. It is not an "invisible" body, it is not a body at all. the "sinews" that Merry pierced were purely spiritual (and this is one reasoning that explains why all blades perish in contact with them, and why only some very special blades can actually hurt them).

Which leads me to another question -- what was the lineage of Éowyn's sword? Must have been a pretty good sword to hurt the Witch-King.