Are you a 🧝Feanor or Finrod person?

Amarthon said:

Wrong. Just your opinion. He was driven, inspired, full of energy, brilliant , talented and a mover of history.

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Inspired? How? What intelligent move did he ever make? He was a brilliant craftsman. That's it! At lot of people move history. What positive way did he move it beyond his crafts? Even those contributions pale in comparison to the negative impacts he had on the world. He got himself and his sons rightfully damned. He got his own followers slaughtered. He slaughtered those who he claimed were his friends because they wouldn't do what he wanted. And because he thought their works were lesser than his own, he thought to take them for himself. He was just as bad as the enemy he claimed to hate.

Offensive war of conquest, not retaliatory war, as was necessary to destroy Hitler's regime. And as to there being "reasons" for wars, sometimes there are, but many if not most are fabricated, aka lies. Every country, tribe, whatever unit you wish to use for collections of people, has its share of antisocial idiots that stir up trouble, for "Fëanorian" reasons, as I would put it. Though even the biggest, most antisocial idiot Hitler felt the need to at least have a few of his troops fake an attack using Polish uniforms, so he could claim that Nazi Germany was "shooting back."

International law has sanctioned warfare to a degree, but that just makes it state-sanctioned murder, instead of the kind that states generally have laws against. It's a concession to human reality, but just shows that the species name we have given ourselves, "Homo sapiens", is the worst misnomer in the entire nomenclature. We're more Orcs than (non-Noldorin) Elves.

Olorgando said:

It's a concession to human reality, but just shows that the species name we have given ourselves, "Homo sapiens", is the worst misnomer in the entire nomenclature. We're more Orcs than (non-Noldorin) Elves.

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To be fair, we're still less violent, as a whole, than nearly every other predatory animal on the planet. We can go weeks, months, years, or even a whole lifetime without knowing any kind of interpersonal violence. No other creature can claim that.

Physical violence, perhaps - though the unrecorded, because unreported cases of domestic violence are by all estimates far higher than the reported cases. And that's very probably not the only area where there are many unreported cases.
But we've invented many other forms of violence than physical violence; mobbing is the most obvious one to come to mind.
And as for that, were one able to "ask" all the other animals on the planet, predatory or not, about our "peacefulness" - we're certain to get a failing grade on that!

Olorgando said:

Physical violence, perhaps - though the unrecorded, because unreported cases of domestic violence are by all estimates far higher than the reported cases. And that's very probably not the only area where there are many unreported cases.

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It could be 300% higher and it would still be staggeringly lower than wild animals.

Olorgando said:

But we've invented many other forms of violence than physical violence; mobbing is the most obvious one to come to mind.

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To quote MST3K: "Not better, just different."

Olorgando said:

And as for that, were one able to "ask" all the other animals on the planet, predatory or not, about our "peacefulness" - we're certain to get a failing grade on that!

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lol Fair enough. I suppose it depends on perspective.

ZehnWaters said:

And what wisdom was there in that? He led everyone he touched into death, mutilation, or misery. Good job. It's almost like they understood things he didn't.

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Rebellion and standing up for yourself. Morgoth murdered his father and took the Light of the World for the third time. The Valar should have pursued Morgoth on the spot. But they were lazy or indifferent. Fëanor did the right thing. Life is tragedy.

Olorgando said:

..So were Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Timur Lenk, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin ...

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At least,these guys were even much better than Feanor in politics,for knowing how to make the correct decisions according to the information gathered already, mostly. And Feanor?I wondered the Valars had better recheck there's anything went wrong during the procedure of creating Feanor's brain or not.

Olorgando said:

...Offensive war of conquest, not retaliatory war, as was necessary to destroy Hitler's regime. And as to there being "reasons" for wars, sometimes there are, but many if not most are fabricated, aka lies. Every country, tribe, whatever unit you wish to use for collections of people, has its share of antisocial idiots that stir up trouble, for "Fëanorian" reasons, as I would put it. Though even the biggest, most antisocial idiot Hitler felt the need to at least have a few of his troops fake an attack using Polish uniforms, so he could claim that Nazi Germany was "shooting back."...

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Thucydides Trap, that is. However, Feanor's declaration of war was no more than a brainless farce possibly, it's another matter if his whole state was in the "Berserk Mood", forcing him to do so, yet JRRT direct description proved the answer.

Amarthon said:

...Fëanor did the right thing. Life is tragedy...

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He could be more correct if he smashed the Similari to flash Valinor just in time.

Amarthon said:

Rebellion and standing up for yourself. Morgoth murdered his father and took the Light of the World for the third time. The Valar should have pursued Morgoth on the spot. But they were lazy or indifferent. Fëanor did the right thing. Life is tragedy.

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Uh., no. The Valar were smart in taking time to make a PLAN. Something Feanor would have been wise to actually do. Instead he just killed his supposed friends and took their stuff. Apparently that's "the right thing".

ZehnWaters said:

Uh., no. The Valar were smart in taking time to make a PLAN. Something Feanor would have been wise to actually do. Instead he just killed his supposed friends and took their stuff. Apparently that's "the right thing".

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Ok while I agree with you that Feanor obviously didn't always make the right choice, I feel like that isn't what we should be arguing here. We aren't, or at least, I'm not, trying to argue that. I just think Feanor more interesting. Feanor is literally such an ENTERTAINING character to read and study because he is full of contradictions. He's rash and impulsive, yes, but he is also an incredible genius. Also, I think Manwe was being pretty useless, and honestly, Morgoth just killed his father, his anger is understandable. Personally, I voted for Feanor because of his complexity. I can't associate with Finrod as much because he is portrayed as too perfect. It's Feanor's flaws juxtaposed with his strengths that make him one of the best characters, imo. It gives his character depth that is more entertaining to read.

Side note:
I am in fact, doing a declamation speech for one of my classes, and chose Feanor's speech upon Tuna, found mostly in Morgoth's Ring. So I might be a little biased haha

Inkling said:

Ok while I agree with you that Feanor obviously didn't always make the right choice, I feel like that isn't what we should be arguing here. We aren't, or at least, I'm not, trying to argue that. I just think Feanor more interesting. Feanor is literally such an ENTERTAINING character to read and study because he is full of contradictions.

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See, to me he's just aggravating. He's not a character I love-to-hate. He's a character I want to die. Sauron is a character I love-to-hate.

Inkling said:

He's rash and impulsive, yes, but he is also an incredible genius.

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Uh...I mean he's a brilliant CRAFTSMAN. Academically he's genius. In practice you can see how limited his "genius" is (he dies pretty quick).

Inkling said:

Also, I think Manwe was being pretty useless,

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Sometimes. I think the Valar just started being more inclined towards "waiting and seeing".

Inkling said:

and honestly, Morgoth just killed his father, his anger is understandable.

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Fëanor had been in selfish and petty prior to his father's death.

Inkling said:

Personally, I voted for Feanor because of his complexity. I can't associate with Finrod as much because he is portrayed as too perfect.

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I didn't find Finrod too perfect unless one's standards are "doesn't kill family and friends because they didn't do what you wanted" to be the standard. In the Athrabeth we find him to be often being ethnocentric and mildly elitist. It should be noted he also went into exile which, in and of itself, is a sign of rebellion (both he and Galadriel dreamed of ruling their own realms).

Inkling said:

Side note:
I am in fact, doing a declamation speech for one of my classes, and chose Feanor's speech upon Tuna, found mostly in Morgoth's Ring. So I might be a little biased haha

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lol No worries. I did a reading of the Ring Poem for Comm 101. Even broke out into Black Speech for the final lines.

Inkling said:

... and honestly, Morgoth just killed his father, his anger is understandable. ...

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Just btw, there were two other Noldorin princes that had suffered then same loss. I remain puzzled a bit at the alternatives Fëanor and Finrod (Felagund), Finarfin's son. Which brings me to the two of the same generation if of a different (Vanyar!) mother, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Did they react as nihilistically narcissistic as did Fëanor? Answer is a flat no. Add to that the scene where Fëanor threatens Fingolfin in the Sil, leading to the former's banishment within Valinor (Fëanor was the easiest mark for Morgoth's lies, the two sharing such a huge assortment of negative character traits). The place of banishment being the place where Morgoth killed his father Finwë (who had joined Fëanor in that exile to try and placate him - something that never worked with this nut). Had Fingolfin not let the utterly unjustified challenge slide, Fëanor would have joined his mother in the Halls of Mandos in very short order. As a warrior, he did not stand the ghost of a chance against Fingolfin (and as a commander of troops, the comparison worsens massively in Fëanor's disfavor).

And as to the whole bit about Morgoth's theft of the Silmarils, killing Finwë in the process:
I can well imagine Fëanor reacting as follows:

"What? He killed my dad? I'll make him pay for that!"

"WHAT?!?!? HE STOLE THE SILMARILS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

{Insert explosion sound of that 58-megaton hydrogen bomb the Soviet Union tested in 1961}

And last, that highest treason ever committed by any Noldo in the entire legendarium: burning the ships,stolen from the Teleri with the mass murder at Alqualondë, forcing Fingolfin's (larger) group to cross the Helcaraxë (with non-trivial losses). How did Fingolfin react?
Now just imagine it had been Fingolfin who had crossed to Middle-earth in boats, and then left Fëanor staring in disbelief at not being picked up in the second wave? How would this second-largest pile of nihilistic, megalomaniac, narcissistic 💩💩💩💩💩 after Morgoth have reacted?

Olorgando said:

Just btw, there were two other Noldorin princes that had suffered then same loss. I remain puzzled a bit at the alternatives Fëanor and Finrod (Felagund), Finarfin's son. Which brings me to the two of the same generation if of a different (Vanyar!) mother, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Did they react as nihilistically narcissistic as did Fëanor?

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Well, don't you know? Fëanor just loved his dad more. Or, you know, was just possessive of him (dude literally begrudged Finwë giving any amount of attention to someone besides himself).

Olorgando said:

As a warrior, he did not stand the ghost of a chance against Fingolfin (and as a commander of troops, the comparison worsens massively in Fëanor's disfavor).

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Fingolfin was a beast when it came to combat.

Olorgando said:

Now just imagine it had been Fingolfin who had crossed to Middle-earth in boats, and then left Fëanor staring in disbelief at not being picked up in the second wave? How would this second-largest pile of nihilistic, megalomaniac, narcissistic 💩💩💩💩💩 after Morgoth have reacted?

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Don't forget WHY he burned the ship. He WANTED the rest to either die or return to Valinor in humiliation. What's more, he didn't want Amrod to try and turn back and return to his (Amrod) mother.

ZehnWaters said:

Well, don't you know? Fëanor just loved his dad more. Or, you know, was just possessive of him (dude literally begrudged Finwë giving any amount of attention to someone besides himself).
...
Don't forget WHY he burned the ship. He WANTED the rest to either die or return to Valinor in humiliation. What's more, he didn't want Amrod to try and turn back and return to his (Amrod) mother.

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Adding these to my (large) Fëanor-bashing pile ... 😁

Fëanor I think, partly because he is very much the opposite of what people would typically picture when they hear the word "elf" in any context.

It is easy to imagine elves as these innocent creatures who sing songs, write poetry and walk around and look pretty and non-confrontational;
and sure, I like elves like that as well, and this is largely how the Vanyar tend to be portrayed.
But it is also interesting when some elves show aggressive and vicious sides of themselves, and Fëanor is certainly a lot like that;
it is hard to imagine that he actually belongs to the same kindred as the spell-binding beautiful elves that the hobbits meet when they run into Gildor!

A few other examples of nasty elves are Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Eöl and Maeglin.

ZehnWaters said:

Don't forget WHY he burned the ship. He WANTED the rest to either die or return to Valinor in humiliation. What's more, he didn't want Amrod to try and turn back and return to his (Amrod) mother.

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Eru should be proud that Feanor, like Melkor, played a blinder

Eriol said:

Didn't Bilbo write that it is very hard to write about good moments? (In Rivendell, The Hobbit). I guess so... it is much better to live in them.

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Leo Tolstoy had a similar idea.

But it doesn't mean that families do not want to be happy. Almost everyone wants to be happy and to communicate with people like Finrod. Tolkien (thanks to his talent) couldn't make such a great character as Finrod boring. So I voted for Finrod.

Interesting discussion on Fëanor. I understand, he wan't to pursue Melkor after he killed his father. But here my understandment for him ends. He was pretty insidious. No better than his enemy.

But I wonder what shape him to be like this? Death of his mother definitely play a part, but what else?

Melkor said:

Interesting discussion on Fëanor. I understand, he wan't to pursue Melkor after he killed his father. But here my understandment for him ends. He was pretty insidious. No better than his enemy.

But I wonder what shape him to be like this? Death of his mother definitely play a part, but what else?

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The death of his mother but also her life. She, too, was stubborn to the point of harming others. While her actions weren't as bad they were seemingly magnified in her son who took that stubbornness to a ridiculous degree and also turned into a possessive, abusive, narcissistic sociopath. Most blamed Melkor but Fëanor was clearly like this BEFORE Melkor was released.

Olorgando said:

Adding these to my (large) Fëanor-bashing pile ... 😁

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