Balrogs.....

[Tyaronumen]

From my 1976 edition Ballantine Books edition of FotR (p. 429):

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Galmdring gelamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

The first mention of wings is somewhat ambiguous: 'like two vast wings' does not necessarily mean it WAS two vast wings. However, the second mention of wings 'and its wings were spread from wall to wall' is quite clear as far as I am concerned. It does not not say the 'wing-like shadow' or what not. It says 'its wings were spread'.

This to me is rather conclusive enough to satisfy me as to whether or not the Balrog had wings.

 

[Gothmog]

Tyaronumen, the The second mention of 'Wings' is no more clear than the first as it follows the comment "And the Shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." Therefore the second mention does not need to have "Wing-like Shadow" it is already stated that the Shadow itself is "Reaching out like two vast wings".

If you picture the Balrog with wings that is your view, but the passage you quote can be read two ways both valid. I have come to think that this is exactly what JRRT. intended. I do not think that he wanted to give a clear picture of the Balrog as his initial description of the Balrog was:

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

The Fellowship of the Ring:The Bridge of Khazad-dum : page 428

 

[Tyaronumen]

I respectfully disagree with you both! If Tolkien had been referring to it's shadow spreading out from wall to wall, I believe it would read "and its shadow was spread from wall to wall" as opposed to "and its wings were spread from wall to wall"...

That is my thought on the matter.

Respectfully,
Tyaronumen

 

[Gothmog]

Tyaronumen,

Have you checked out the link posted in the seventh post in this thread? I leads to an article about Balrogs and wings. If you have not seen it you may find it interesting as it gives many arguments both for and against wings.

 

[Tuor]

talierin: look at the Infernals in WC III. do you picture them as something like that?

 

[Flame of Utumno]

My image of Balrogs

'Balrog' is the Sindarin translation of the Quenya name 'Valaraukar', which should translate as 'evil or corrupted Valar'. This being the case, they must be as awesome to behold as one of the Valar, but absolutely terrifying and hideous at the same time. (Concerning wings, they definitely have wings as stated by Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings when describing the Balrog in the mines of Moria.)

 

[Cian]

Re: My image of Balrogs

Originally posted by Flame of Utumno 'Balrog' is the Sindarin translation of the Quenya name 'Valaraukar', which should translate as 'evil or corrupted Valar'. This being the case, they must be as awesome to behold as one of the Valar, but absolutely terrifying and hideous at the same time. (Concerning wings, they definitely have wings as stated by Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings when describing the Balrog in the mines of Moria.)

Valarauco (singular) means "Power-demon", cf also Sindarin Balrog "Demon of might".

 

[Flame of Utumno]

Re: Re: My image of Balrogs

Originally posted by Cian


Valarauco (singular) means "Power-demon", cf also Sindarin Balrog "Demon of might".

And I think Tolkien did not necessarilly state Balrogs had "wings" anymore than he stated the Sea-men in Tal-Elmar had wings, or maybe the way he described "wings" of darkness in RotK.

I believe that Tolkien did not intend Sindarin and Quenya to be completely independent as your statement suggests, because 'Power-Demon' is very different to 'Demon of Might'. I believe that the two words have an identical meaning and that since the Quenya is the older language and since most of Sindarin is an derived from Quenya, then the two must have the same meaning. 'Vala' in Quanya = 'Bal' in Sindarin, and 'Rauco' in Quenya = 'Rog' in Sindarin.
Concerning wings, at the end of the day, each Balrog was a corrupted Vala, therefore as each Vala was an individual being, some may have had wings whilst others may have taken on another form. It just happens that the one in the Moria mine had wings. There is no literary or vagueness about its usage in this particular context. (Personally I favour the view that they had wings as this adds to their greatness and is in line with the notion that they were Vala turned evil). Furthermore, who is to say that Balrogs could not shift their forms since Sauron is technically a Balrog (corrupted Vala) who definitely changed forms during the Silmarillion.

 

[Cian]

Re: Re: Re: My image of Balrogs

Originally posted by Flame of Utumno I believe that Tolkien did not intend Sindarin and Quenya to be completely independent as your statement suggests, because 'Power-Demon' is very different to 'Demon of Might'. I believe that the two words have an identical meaning and that since the Quenya is the older language and since most of Sindarin is an derived from Quenya, then the two must have the same meaning. 'Vala' in Quanya = 'Bal' in Sindarin, and 'Rauco' in Quenya = 'Rog' in Sindarin.

I have not suggested that vala is not a close cognate of bala, and moreover the word "might" is merely a synonym of "power". As such I don't know why you state "completely independent" here, but anyway, also re: the derivation characterization of Sindarin ~ Sindarin is the most prominent descendant of Common Telerin, itself a branch of Common Eldarin ~ C.E. being the ancestor of Quenya, Telerin, Sindarin, Nandorin ...

Concerning wings, at the end of the day, each Balrog was a corrupted Vala, therefore as each Vala was an individual being, some may have had wings whilst others may have taken on another form. It just happens that the one in the Moria mine had wings. There is no literary or vagueness about its usage in this particular context ...

Balrogs are Maiar technically.

 

[Flame of Utumno]

Thanks for the info.
However, Maia or Vala, they were still present in the Ainulindalie, and they are of the same kind, except that the Vala are just a greater type of Maia, not two distinct types of beings.
I must admit that I take a more fundamentalist view of Tolkien's writings and so I still believe that when he stated wings, he meant wings, there was no use of a simile or 'like wings'. Perhaps in other scenes he used 'wing imagery' but in this particular scene he definitely states wings in a physically descriptive manner. (Personally, this description of the Balrog is my favourite scene in all of the Lord of the Rings).
I would also like to ask the question why so many of you dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings? Being corrupted maia, surely some of them were capable of choosing the form they took and some most probably chose to have wings... I think it understimates their greatness if they were not capable of having wings and so I believe balrogs most probably had wings if they so desired (as the one in Moria had). Looking forward to your reply..

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by Flame of Utumno: However, Maia or Vala, they were still present in the Ainulindalie, and they are of the same kind, except that the Vala are just a greater type of Maia, not two distinct types of beings.

One reason I pointed out the distinction is because the word vala in Valarauco takes on its more basic meaning of "power". The technical reference of Balrogs as Maiar, (or Umaiar in places [UUmaiar]) is not meant as an implication of a completely different "order"

I would also like to ask the question why so many of you dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings? Being corrupted maia, surely some of them were capable of choosing the form they took and some most probably chose to have wings... I think it understimates their greatness if they were not capable of having wings and so I believe balrogs most probably had wings if they so desired (as the one in Moria had). Looking forward to your reply..

For myself, I do not particularly dislike a winged balrog, but think a cloak of "unlight" about the Balrog more creative. Cheers.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Flame of Utumno
I would also like to ask the question why so many of you dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings? Being corrupted maia, surely some of them were capable of choosing the form they took and some most probably chose to have wings... I think it understimates their greatness if they were not capable of having wings and so I believe balrogs most probably had wings if they so desired (as the one in Moria had). Looking forward to your reply..

For myself the reason that I dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings is that apart form the fact that from the first time I read Lord of the Rings I have seen the image of the Balrog without wings because of the description given of the one in Moria. I feel that for a being of such power to give itself completely useless appendages to verge on the idiotic.

 

[Grond]

Gad... Cian and Gothmog, I bow to your wonderful analysis of this interesting subject. Like both of you, I have always invisioned Balrogs as creatures of darkness and shadow whose shadow sometimes seem to extend from them as wings. There is a link to another cite in this very thread that explains linearly, why it would have been hard for a balrog to have wings and have been the size and shape described in the story of Moria. In a nutshell, there just wasn't enough room in the cavern of the bridge of Khazad-dum for a 13-16 foot Balrog and another 20-30 feet of wings. If it were mere shadows, these shadows could have appeared as wings and encompassed the entire cavern.

Well that's my humble opinion, for what little it's worth.

 

[Flame of Utumno]

I think it is great to see so many Balrog fanatics!
Personally, I love the notion that Balrogs had wings because it just adds to their menacing image. They would look too ordinary without them.
Imagine seeing a demon in front of you with massive outstretched wings reaching from wall to wall in a massive cave. Then imagine the same demon without the wings and just standing there. Even if his shadow or evil aura looked liked wings, it would still not have the same effect on me. I'm sure that Legolas, rather than running off and screaming like a woman, would have simply mistaken him for an oversized Troll and swiftly shot an arrow through him.

 

[Grond]

Gothmog, Cian and Ancalagon. I have finally found someone who believes the Ring Can Think. (see thread "Can the Ring Thing?") Surely the Flame of Utumno in taking the writing of the author so literally concerning his use of verbage would be adament that the Ring thought.

(and holy moly.... my 600th post)

 

[Cian]

Arguably, Tolkien did not think that a Balrog needed any vast physical wings in inception ... most folks agree that JRRT's 'early' Balrogs were unwinged and could not fly. The rub, as it were, it with the 'later' Balrog ... one in which "terror" went before it in any case.
From The Later Quenta Silmarillion

"These were the (ëalar) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days ..."

Many years earlier, from the very early Fall of Gondolin (BoLT): Chris Tolkien gathers up some Balrog description for comparison [(...) representing page refs that I deleted] ~

"The Balrogs are 'demons of power' (...); they are capable of pain and fear (); they are attired in iron armour (); and they have whips of flame (a character they never lost) and claws of steel ()."

 

[Flame of Utumno]

Thanks for the background on Balrog wings.

However, I still think they look much more menacing with the wings rather than without them....

 

[Aredhel]

I always imagined them to be griffin-like; sharp talons, the like, and of course, the 50 foot wingspan.

 

[Grond]

Two questions for you Aredhel.

1) How did a creature with a 50 foot wingspan fit into the Chamber of Balin's tomb which was described as being fairly small?

2) As he was falling off the Bridge and had grabbed Gandalf with the thongs of his whip, why didn't the Balrog fly straight up and dash Gandalf's brains out on the ceiling?

Obviously, either that Balrog had very small unusable wings or none at all. I personally like the "wings of shadow" JRRT first described in the encounter with the Balrog of Moria. But that's just me.

 

[Greymantle]

Sorry... ocrrect me if I sound like an idiot... but did the Balrog ever actually go into the chamber? Or did he just mentally wrestle with Gandalf from the outside?
Not that I think they have wings, mind...