Celeborn, 🧝Galadriel and Khazad-dûm

[Rivendell_librarian]

From the History of Galadriel and Celeborn it seems that Galadriel would have passed through Khazad-dûm at least once but Celeborn's dislike of dwarves means he may not have done - though he did move to Lothlorien (Lorinand) at some stage. He could have travelled over the mountains or around their southern end. Does anyone have any firmer info on this question?

 

[Elthir]

Does anyone have any firmer info on this question?

I do!

Sort of.

But I don't employ the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn about this (in which Celeborn would
not enter the mansions of the Dwarves), although in later texts we have contemporary but seemingly conflicting statements here -- one being that Celeborn ultimately joined Galadriel in Lindon after fortifying Lothlorien (after Eregion's fall, with Celeborn seemingly passing through Moria), the
other being that they both passed to Lorien through Moria after Eregion was destroyed.

🐾

 

[Alcuin]

It’s never wise to dispute your Galadriel notions, Elthir, but I am confused about the storyline, chaotic and contradictory as it is.

I thought Galadriel departed Eregion through Khazad-dûm to Lórien after she found herself unwelcome to the Mírdain under Annatar’s influence (i.e., Sauron in disguise). That would explain, in part, why she received Nenya separately from Vilya and Narya, both of which Celebrimbor gave to Gil-galad, and it would also provide Celebrimbor, who was no stranger to Khazad-dûm, an opportunity to deliver the greatest of the Seven to his friend Durin III. (I also suspect that this was Tolkien’s framework at the time he wrote Lord of the Rings. In which case it is possible, perhaps even likely, at that point in the construction of the legendarium that Amroth was the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, which would explain why Galadriel chose to go east to Lórien instead of west back to Lindon and some degree of disgrace: She had left Lindon and Gil-galad’s rule in company with Celebrimbor to rule a realm of her own, namely Eregion.)

I never gave much thought to how Celeborn might have arrived in Lórien. In the days of the power of Khazad-dûm, the Redhorn Pass must have been quite safe, excepting winter weather. Celeborn did not like Dwarves of any sort, though early on, Elu Thingol was in alliance with the Dwarves of Nogrod before they murdered him in Menegroth in greedy rage after he berated them for coveting the Silmaril.

By the way, Thingol’s alliance with Nogrod was how Thingol got Menegroth: the Dwarves of Nogrod excavated the tunnels and along with the Sindar built Menegroth. The Sindar were also first armed with weapons of war by the Dwarves of Nogrod. I think it likely that Aranrúth, Thingol’s sword, was forged by Telchar of Nogrod. If that is the case, then Narsil, which we know Telchar forged, was the mate to Aranrúth, as Orcrist forged by the Noldor in Gondolin was the mate to Glamdring, Turgon’s sword. Aranrúth was passed down through Dior and Elwing and became the personal weapon of the Kings of Númenor. It was lost when Ar-Pharazôn assaulted Valinor. I believe Tar-Elendil gave his eldest child, Silmariën, and her son Valandil, first Lord of Andúnië, Narsil from his treasury, marking the Lords of Andúnië as the leading noble house in Númenor, a cadet branch of the House of Eärendil. (In fact the senior branch of the House of Eärendil, since Tar-Meneldur, Tar-Elendil’s successor, was his third child and only son.)

 

[Elthir]

Hi Alcuin

The short answer might be that despite its popularity, I don't employ Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn for much of anything that concerns Galadriel and Celeborn.



For example, you wrote: "I thought Galadriel departed Eregion through Khazad-dûm to Lórien after she found herself unwelcome to the Mírdain under Annatar’s influence (i.e., Sauron in disguise)."

And that is, in part, the scenario in CG&C.

But it falls within a larger scenario that I think Tolkien later abandoned, which includes: Galadriel and Celeborn as co-founders and co-rulers of Eregion, Amroth as Galadriel's son, and Galadriel passing to Lorien before the destruction of Eregion -- regarding this last idea, there's a brief mention in Words, Phrases, and Passages (PE 17), entry Lothlorien: " . . . -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion."

Is this just brevity, or . . .

. . . so some of my reasons are based on "limited" text, canon considerations and opinion. For another example, Appendix B "some of the Noldor" went to Eregion for Mithril -- year 750 Eregion founded by the Noldor -- (revised edition addition) Celebrimbor (now a Feanorean) "was Lord of Eregion."

That's author published text of course, with no hint of Galadriel ruling, and as I line up these dominos anyway, Galadriel isn't ousted from power by the Mírdain and thus need not retreat to Lorien before Eregion's fall. Also, the seeming "problem" (if it's agreed to be one) that Christopher Tolkien raises, arguably goes away . . .

"[No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion]" Christopher Tolkien, CG&C

According to Appendix B, Gil-galad refused to treat with Sauron, and although Tolkien himself didn't publish the following, according to Of the Rings of Power And The Third Age, Sauron in his fair guise didn't even go to the land of Lindon! Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him enough that they wouldn't admit him there.

Was JRRT really going to put Galadriel in power where Sauron got his famous "in" with the Elves?
Keeping in mind her noted insight into others, and that Gil-galad would become a younger relation
of hers in the Finarfinian line. Well yes, JRRT went there in this outline . . .

. . . but did he ultimately imagine that only under Celebrimbor's rule, Sauron infiltrates? I think this latter idea won out, and thought so even before the following was published:

" . . . many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)" JRRT WPP PE17, entry yrch

Again, maybe not a "slam dunk" interpretation wise, but . . .

That much said, I realize one can attempt (as I would phrase it for this matter) to "merge" texts, but for myself, I see no great reason to do that here. As I hinted at earlier, in the first edition (Appendix B, before the dated entries begin), no ruler of Eregion is even mentioned in this section, much less someone descended from Feanor.

So I ask me: is the reader to believe that Tolkien, adding this line in the 1960s, "meant" Celebrimbor ruled Eregion after Galadriel and Celeborn? Or that he simply ruled at some point?

Possible.

But from JRRT's perspective (what he's "now" adding for the reader), and thus from author-published description, if I recall correctly, we don't have any reason to think it was Galadriel who co-founded and co-ruled Eregion -- and Tolkien could have noted that Celebrimbor "eventually" ruled there, or added something brief to a dated Tale of Years entry . . . if he still held to the post-Lord of the Rings posthumously published idea from CG&C, that is.

Anyway, sorry if this has become a rambling muddle. There are some moving parts with respect to my fairly sweeping dismissal of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.

🐾

 

[Elthir]

By the way RL, if you do hold to the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn text (CG&C), then Celeborn never goes to Lorien in the Second Age (not that you didn't know this already). But then you run into later text where it's said that Celeborn and Galadriel "returned" to Lorien "twice before the Last Alliance" (thus before the end of the Second Age of course).

And also in CG&C, Celebrimbor is a craftsman from Gondolin persuaded by Annatar to revolt (with the Mirdain) and seize power in Eregion -- so as noted, Galadriel takes Amroth and Celebrian to Lorien, and Celeborn remains, "disregarded" by Celebrimbor.

Well, Tolkien then adds that Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith but had accepted Sauron as what he proposed to be . . . okay . . . but he still ousted the rulers of Eregion -- and then when he realizes Sauron's plan . . . he goes to Galadriel (in Lorien) for counsel . . .

. . . erm, Galadriel, sorry for basically throwing you out of the Realm you founded, and disregarding your husband. My bad. But can you help me now?

Well, none of this is impossible, surely; but I can add . . .

. . . in the note where JRRT's thinking about Celebrimbor as Curufin's son, he writes that Celebrimbor in Nargothrond had grown to love Finrod (Galadriel's brother of course), and briefly adds (of Celebrimbor again): "He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel."

More to chew on here, in any case 🐾

Though I'm not sure how much can be "auto-merged" into one post