Corporeality of the Nazgûl?

Alcuin, that was a nice explanation of your position, and I appreciate the work. That said, I don't think it really answers my concern here from an in-story perspective.

Alcuin said:

First of all, I don’t think Sauron still possessed the ability to shift shape.

Click to expand...

That was just a hypothetical to try to bolster a point. Tolkien wants his great enemies (Morgoth, Sauron) to be incarnate, and even when Sauron's incarnate, he has reason to fear weapons.

The point is (if indeed Tolkien was thinking along the lines of "vulnerability" in the sense you mean [which I agree seems a fair interpretation for the posthumously published quote you provided, but is not necessarily the scenario with respect to the posthumously published quote I provided, and more importantly, not necessarily the scenario according to the author-published tale) . . .

. . . ah where was I? Oh yes, the point is about (arguably) having "too much" power. Morgoth has reason to fear weapons, Sauron had reason to fear weapons . . .

. . . yet the Nine do not (except for one type)? The Nine already have special advantages in battle, and unlike the Oath-breakers (again seemingly, given the quote Tolkien provides concerning their blades), the Nine can kill with their weapons.

And when you write this:

"And by the same token, why would the Witch-king be afraid of Gondor’s Steward Boromir I? Because Boromir had control of his fear, he was a great commander and personally an outstanding warrior, and thus he had the ability to injure even the Witch-king."

Click to expand...

I agree. But how to injure him, if the Witch-king is invulnerable to normal weapons. Are you proposing, by implication, that this Boromir had a weapon like Merry's? Or that such weapons were the norm in Rohan, Gondor, and Imladris? And if you are, based on what text?

No one stabbed the wraiths first (with a barrow blade) to make them vulnerable to water or fire (physical things in any case). And I agree that Merry's stab caused great pain, and in my opinion, it had a magical effect on the Wraith . . .

. . . but that said, if Tolkien means that Éowyn, Éomer, Imrahil, fifty Rohirric knights who had the will to stand against the unreasoning fear, Aragorn, Gandalf, or even Elemmacil (couldn't resist) had no chance whatsoever against the Witch-king, because they didn't have the right kind of weapon . . .

. . . then my reaction is that I think JRRT's opening up an "unwanted" door here with respect to scenarios involving Wraiths. Or to put it another way, if so, in my opinion he's allowing unwanted questions to arise in the reader's minds -- questions that can be avoided, however, if the blades are extra-effective in some way, rather than making the wraiths suddenly vulnerable.

For example, before the Company even sets out, send one of the Nine to kill Theoden. And anyone who tries to stop him (assuming they can master their fear, for love of King and Folk and so on) is dead. And you have the somewhat silly scenario (to my mind) of arrow after arrow, sword or spear after sword or spear, being essentially useless.

Or am I missing something maybe?

Or something else

I think I can respond quickly to this…

Yes, I think you are missing something, Elthir. “All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.” Either they pierce him or they don’t. The Witch-king is not invulnerable to being hurt. His body and soul can’t be separated: He can’t be killed. Which is why I wrote earlier that “it could become a kind of living hell,” because he’d still suffer pain, he’d still have any impediments of hacked off limbs until they were repaired (presumably through sorcery), and if any of the Nazgûl were beheaded, he’d literally have to go home with his head in his hands.

Your confusion comes from the notion that the Nazgûl are invulnerable. They’re not. “Can’t be killed” is entirely different from “Can’t be hurt.” I hold that they can be hurt, even dreadfully so, but they cannot be killed. “Cannot be killed” sounds very pleasant – until one considers the alternatives: Maimed, crushed, skewered, burned, drowned, in wretched agony, but unable to die. That’s part of the traditional description of Hell. The Ringwraiths wanted to avoid this kind of pain and suffering as much as they could, and after more than four millennia, they’d probably experienced a lot of it. Moreover, their “healing” probably included long sessions with Sauron, and I shouldn’t suppose he was very gentle in his ministrations.

The Barrow-blade severed that “cannot be killed” rule when it severed the Witch-king’s tendons behind his knee. His body and soul (hröa and fëa) were separated, and his body died at long last. And his fëa wailed all the way to Barad-dûr.

The Nazgûl are not invincible. They’re not invulnerable. (Tolkien never used those words to describe Ringwraiths, as far as I can tell.)

Otherwise, you do indeed end up with the “silly scenario … of arrow after arrow, sword or spear after sword or spear, being essentially useless.” And that’s what we both want to avoid.

Alcuin said:

Yes, I think you are missing something, Elthir. “All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.” Either they pierce him or they don’t. The Witch-king is not invulnerable to being hurt.

Click to expand...

I agree with the third sentence (not counting the quote). And the Tolkien quote doesn't necessarily mean regular blades can't pierce him (not that you're saying otherwise).

Alcuin said:

His body and soul can’t be separated: He can’t be killed.

Click to expand...

Agreed again with the second sentence -- in the sense that he can't be ultimately killed if Sauron is alive and potent.

Alcuin said:

( . . . ) Your confusion comes from the notion that the Nazgûl are invulnerable. They’re not. “Can’t be killed” is entirely different from “Can’t be hurt.” I hold that they can be hurt, even dreadfully so, but they cannot be killed.

Click to expand...

My opinion has always been that they are not invulnerable, and indeed Tolkien never uses this word to describe them. Again, I agree that they can be hurt, but where we seem to differ (I think) is that I hold that the wraiths can be '"killed" by the separation of hroa and fea . . . but yet returning to Sauron, bound to the Nine, he gives them a new corporality.

Alcuin said:

“Cannot be killed” sounds very pleasant – until one considers the alternatives: Maimed, crushed, skewered, burned, drowned, in wretched agony, but unable to die. That’s part of the traditional description of Hell. The Ringwraiths wanted to avoid this kind of pain and suffering as much as they could, and after more than four millennia, they’d probably experienced a lot of it. Moreover, their “healing” probably included long sessions with Sauron, and I shouldn’t suppose he was very gentle in his ministrations.

Click to expand...

Here I admit I wasn't paying enough attention to your earlier post (apologies!), as this part at least, does try to address my concern.

What I might be confusing could be the idea which (I thought) some people seem to hold: that the wraiths are basically ghosts until a barrow blade strikes them, and thus they cannot be hit with regular weapons in general -- and so, neither hurt, nor "killed" unless struck by a barrow-blade first; and if the barrow-blade strike itself isn't "lethal" (like a leg wound), only then can the Nine still be "taken out, brought to nothing" (at least for a time), by regular weapons . . .

. . . but perhaps this isn't a popular notion at all!

Alcuin said:

The Barrow-blade severed that “cannot be killed” rule when it severed the Witch-king’s tendons behind his knee. His body and soul (hröa and fëa) were separated,

Click to expand...

Ah but the separation described is that of ("unseen sinews to will"), in other words, will to body

If in a fight, I could somehow separate a man's will from his body, he wouldn't die of course. He would be unable to prevent me from defeating him however. He might even fall down!

Alcuin said:

and his body died at long last. And his fëa wailed all the way to Barad-dûr.

Click to expand...

I agree he "died" though not in the usual sense that Men die (their fëar leaving the world); but when the One was soon destroyed, then he truly died.

Elthir said:

I agree that they can be hurt, but where we seem to differ (I think) is that I hold that the wraiths can be '"killed" by the separation of hroa and fea . . . but yet returning to Sauron, bound to the Nine, he gives them a new corporality.

Click to expand...

Yes: Here we differ.

Elves who have lost their bodies are consigned to Mandos. There they remain until the End, unless the Valar determine that they have served their penance, in which case they are either reëmbodied or reborn, depending upon which telling you prefer. (I am for “reëmbodied”.) This ability is not innate to Elves: They require the assistance of the Valar.

After the destruction of his first physical form in the ruin of Númenor, Sauron managed to make himself a second physical form, but one much less adaptive and flexible, more like a Balrog’s. Sometime in the first millennium of the Third Age (late in that first millennium, I guess), he managed to make a third physical form. He was able to accomplish both of these subsequent reëmbodiments, I beieve, because of his Ruling Ring, which prevented his native power from becoming scattered when his body was destroyed. We do not, for instance, hear of the return of any of the Balrogs. Not even Morgoth was able to rehouse himself after his body was executed by the Valar and his spirit cast forth from Eä; and though Tolkien indicates he would eventually be able to make another avatar, he is careful to point out that this is because Morgoth was a Vala, and his power regenerated with Time. Sauron is not a Vala, but a Maia: He does not regenerate that kind of power, in my opinion.

Nor, I believe, could he reincarnate one of the Nazgûl. Sauron was “The Necromancer”, but his skill was in creating phantasms like the Wargs that attacked the Company of the Ring in Hollin; “possessing” bodies, whether of the living (as “Myths Transformed” indicates) or of the dead, such as the Barrow-wight that inhabited the corpse of the buried Dúnadan of Cardolan.

I believe the Rings of Power must exhibit a stable underlying logic. To reiterate from my first post in this thread, in Letter 131, Tolkien wrote,
My conclusion follows:
If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that the Nazgûl just pop back into existence through Sauron’s power if they are physically eliminated: say, by burning them to ashes and then disposing of the ash. I cannot agree to this. I do not believe Sauron has that kind of power, or he would use it for himself! If we follow Tolkien’s logic, the Rings of Power “prevent[] decay,” then I think we are led to the conclusion that for the Elves, that meant the decay of their bodies and their bodily separation from spirit; but for Men, it meant the death of their bodies and the separation of their spirit. Their lives become “like butter that has been scraped over too much bread,” as Bilbo put it. Gandalf reiterates this to Frodo:
Ologando proposes that the Ringwraiths have “become[] … invisible permanently,” just as Gandalf says, and I – and you, too, I think – agree. What I propose is that they “do[] not die, but … do[] not grow or obtain more life.” Which means that when they are injured, they must seek healing through sorcery, from Sauron or through the use of his arts, because they “do[] not grow or obtain more life.” And THAT is why the Witch-king feared Gondor’s Boromir I, it’s why he fled the battlefield of Arnor when Glorfindel rode up with the cavalry of Rivendell. It’s why Tolkien’s notes (in Reader’s Companion) indicate that the Nazgûl could be harassed by Elves and Rangers, how this harassment was able to interrupt their communications so that they returned late to Bree and missed Frodo, and why they feared Aragorn after Weathertop because he attacked them with fire, which hurts a lot and from which wounds may be difficult to repair, despite the fact that it was the Bearer who attacked with the knife.

Let me point this out as well: If Sauron can restore the corporeality of a Nazgûl, then they are what you describe in your hyperbole: monstrous, unstoppable, over-powered killing machines. But if instead they have bodies, “permanently invisible” yet still corporeal, then they have reason to fear injury in battle, to fear being burned. It hurts! Even earthworms try to avoid pain! much less people, whether it’s you or me, or a four thousand year-old Ringwraith. And you and I probably heal better and faster than a Ringwraith would.

Elthir said:

[T]he separation described is that of ("unseen sinews to will"), in other words, will to body

If in a fight, I could somehow separate a man's will from his body, he wouldn't die of course. He would be unable to prevent me from defeating him however. He might even fall down!

Click to expand...

I think you’re taking too literally what Tolkien is saying poetically: “[B]reaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will,” is a beautiful description of exactly what I think is happening: His “will” is his fëa, his “unseen sinews” his hröa. The Witch-king is now going to die one way or another – thus as Tolkien remarks in his notes (again, Reader’s Companion) concerning the Witch-king’s near-miss from Frodo’s Barrow-blade at Weathertop,
His body, his hröa, is now vulnerable to death, and Éowyn decapitates him.

Elthir said:

I agree he "died" though not in the usual sense that Men die (their fëar leaving the world); but when the One was soon destroyed, then he truly died.

Click to expand...

On this point, we are again in agreement. I believe his spirit was still bound to the Ring though his body was destroyed: he could not depart Middle-earth.

Our only point of disagreement, Elthir, if I understand you correctly, is that you seem to hold that the Nazgûl could be physically destroyed and then reëmbodied. I disagree: the whole point of the Great Rings was to preserve bodies, whether for the Elves, as was their original purpose, or for Men, as fell out when the Elves were dispossessed of them.

And now I am terribly behind in my work…

Elthir said:

(a lot!)

Click to expand...

Alcuin said:

(a lot more!)

Click to expand...

Ah ... what was the question?!? 😱🤯🥴

Really good stuff, guys.

But I then had this thought: I've got a really big honking computer monitor (it's as wide as the tube TV we had until 2009), but Alcuin's really big post on the previous page is still over five pages long. I tried to imagine say @Squint-eyed Southerner (and others) scrolling their way through it on a "smart"-phone. My right thumb hurts just thinking about it ... 🥵

Alcuin said:

Elves who have lost their bodies are consigned to Mandos. There they remain until the End, unless the Valar determine that they have served their penance, in which case they are either reëmbodied or reborn, depending upon which telling you prefer. (I am for “reëmbodied”.) This ability is not innate to Elves: They require the assistance of the Valar.

Click to expand...

Tolkien did muse, at one point (Morgoth's Ring), that the Elves had the power to rebuild their hroar from the memory of the fear. But yes, his latest thoughts on the matter had the Valar doing this (while also emphatically rejecting rebirth as children as a mode of Elvish reincanation).

Alcuin said:

After the destruction of his first physical form in the ruin of Númenor, Sauron managed to make himself a second physical form, but one much less adaptive and flexible, more like a Balrog’s. Sometime in the first millennium of the Third Age (late in that first millennium, I guess), he managed to make a third physical form. He was able to accomplish both of these subsequent reëmbodiments, I beieve, because of his Ruling Ring, (clip for brevity) Sauron is not a Vala, but a Maia: He does not regenerate that kind of power, in my opinion.

Click to expand...

But you've just illustrated that Sauron does have that power. He comes back, the ruling ring is not destroyed, nor the Nine Rings, which he holds.

Alcuin said:

Nor, I believe, could he reincarnate one of the Nazgûl. Sauron was “The Necromancer”, but his skill was in creating phantasms like the Wargs that attacked the Company of the Ring in Hollin; “possessing” bodies, whether of the living (as “Myths Transformed” indicates) or of the dead, such as the Barrow-wight that inhabited the corpse of the buried Dúnadan of Cardolan.

Click to expand...

And perhaps the Nine rings held on to their spirits, and a corporality of some measure, such that it could be regenerated by Sauron. The tale is Hobbit-viewpoint, with help from folks of the West. I'm not sure it would even make fictive sense to know exactly how this was possible -- for example, how did the Olog-hai not mind Sunlight, "simply" because (and as long as) Sauron's will held sway over them.

Alcuin said:

I believe the Rings of Power must exhibit a stable underlying logic. To reiterate from my first post in this thread, in Letter 131, Tolkien wrote: The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay

​

My conclusion follows: The necromancy of the Rings of Power was to prevent the fading of the hröar of their Elvish wielders. It interrupted the natural progression of Elvish physical development in Middle-earth: It stops the consumption of the hröa by the fëa (i.e., it prevents physical decay) in Elves.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'd use "decay" when it comes to the fea consuming the hroa, but the Elvish Rings, as you know, went far beyond the bodies of Elves, into preserving their realms, and as you also know, could not prevent death by weapons or grief.

Alcuin said:

Their effect on mortal Men … still halts the natural progression of the relationship between the hröa and the fëa, but in this case, it prevents physical death. … [I]nstead of inducing death, it holds the fëa, the spirit, to the hröa, the body. You can get hurt, really badly hurt, but you can’t die.​

Click to expand...

I won't quibble except with the last four words

And even there I agree that they can't "ulimately" die unto Sauron is taken out!

Alcuin said:

If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that the Nazgûl just pop back into existence through Sauron’s power if they are physically eliminated. . .

Click to expand...

. . . now now, I never said "pop" as if it's easy!

Alcuin said:

say, by burning them to ashes and then disposing of the ash. I cannot agree to this. I do not believe Sauron has that kind of power, or he would use it for himself!

Click to expand...

But he does use it for himself. His body is destroyed, he comes back -- but even so, I don't think we need to make a one-to-one equivalence to Sauron making his own incarnation, with "necromanting" a measure of corporality for his lesser servants, again whose rings still existed as well.

[Sauron says] "You Nine can't "die" like true Men, your spirits can't leave the world, but I need you to be able to interact with it! Come back to me if necessary, even that Wizard knows you stand of fall with your Master."

Alcuin said:

Let me point this out as well:

Click to expand...

Okay

Alcuin said:

If Sauron can restore the corporeality of a Nazgûl, then they are what you describe in your hyperbole: monstrous, unstoppable, over-powered killing machines.

Click to expand...

I disagree. They cannot be so within my theory because even regular weapons can take them out of the game, thus coming back and trying again becomes a circular dead end (pun intended).

Moreover, you are saying that they can be "healed" and come back. And what does Sauron care if they experience pain during an assassination attempt on Theoden? The Wraiths do Sauron's will.

Alcuin said:

And you and I probably heal better and faster than a Ringwraith would.

Click to expand...

My emphasis on "probably"

Alcuin said:

I think you’re taking too literally what Tolkien is saying poetically: “[B]reaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will,” is a beautiful description of exactly what I think is happening: His “will” is his fëa, his “unseen sinews” his hröa.

Click to expand...

Well, "spirit" instead of "will" is arguably just as poetic, in my opinion.

And it's not just the choice of word here: if after Merry's strike the Witch-king now is truly vulnerable to more pain . . . and now death! Again, he appears to do nothing to try to evade or deflect Éowyn strike -- and as I say, Tolkien's choice of wording here would seem to give the wraith plenty of time to react . . . and a leg wound might be painful, but if someone's going to struggle up and give you a death wound . . . well, I hope I'd move. Or do something!

Alcuin said:

( . . . ) I disagree: the whole point of the Great Rings was to preserve bodies, whether for the Elves, as was their original purpose, or for Men, as fell out when the Elves were dispossessed of them.​

Click to expand...

I'd say, the wraiths were given enough "corporality" to interact again with the physical world. And I agree that might sound like splitting hairs, but we're dealing with the Necromancer here, and I doubt the scribes of the West would be privy to the exact magic involved. Essentially a "body" let's say, for practical purposes.

And as for the Quendi, the rings preserved things that the Elves desired to preserve, yes, which would seem to stave off physical fading, but yet they could die of course, and be re-bodied by the exact memory of the hroa contained within the fea.

Olorgando said:

Ah ... what was the question?!? 😱🤯🥴

Really good stuff, guys.

But I then had this thought: I've got a really big honking computer monitor (it's as wide as the tube TV we had until 2009), but Alcuin's really big post on the previous page is still over five pages long. I tried to imagine say @Squint-eyed Southerner (and others) scrolling their way through it on a "smart"-phone. My right thumb hurts just thinking about it ... 🥵

Click to expand...

And those 5 page posts are the very reasons I enjoy my visits with ALL the fine folk here. Even on a smart phone. It’s worth the callus on the pad of my thumb!

I just noticed this.

Elthir said:

Alcuin said:

After the destruction of his first physical form in the ruin of Númenor, Sauron managed to make himself a second physical form, but one much less adaptive and flexible, more like a Balrog’s. Sometime in the first millennium of the Third Age (late in that first millennium, I guess), he managed to make a third physical form. He was able to accomplish both of these subsequent reëmbodiments, I beieve, because of his Ruling Ring, (clip for brevity) Sauron is not a Vala, but a Maia: He does not regenerate that kind of power, in my opinion.

Click to expand...

But you've just illustrated that Sauron does have that power. He comes back, the ruling ring is not destroyed, nor the Nine Rings, which he holds.

Click to expand...

Hmm… What was elided by that “(clip for brevity)”?

Alcuin said:

...because of his Ruling Ring, which prevented his native power from becoming scattered when his body was destroyed.

Click to expand...

No, I did not “illustrate[] that Sauron does have that power” to regenerate himself per se. I said he still possessed that power “because of his Ruling Ring, which prevented his native power from becoming scattered when his body was destroyed.”

From Letter 200,Sauron was able to rebuild himself precisely because the Ring was not destroyed after his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, and his power was therefore not scattered. Elrond told the Council, Sauron laid the foundations of Barad-dûr about Second Age 1000, according to the Tale of Years (Appendix B). He did not begin the forging of the Ruling Ring for another six centuries. In fact, he did not enter Eregion until around 1200, and the Rings of Power were not begun for approximately another three hundred after that.

This means the power Sauron used to form his first physical form, the power he used to lay the foundations of Barad-dûr, the power (if any*) he placed into the Rings of Power, and the power her used to forge the One Ring was all subsequently placed into the One Ring. As long as the One Ring endured, that power, which was native to Sauron in his beginning, also endured.

Gandalf told Frodo that And later, he tells him thatThe only way to destroy the Ring is toAnd from Letter 131,
Sauron’s ability to remake his physical form was intimately intertwined with the physical existence of his One Ring. His ability to dominate wills was, to a large extent, dependent upon his physical possession of it as well: he could not see the thoughts or devices of the Elves wielding the Three Rings without it. The Nazgûl, however, were already long-enslaved to their Rings, and when face-to-face with Sauron unable to withhold their Rings from him: he took them to ensure their unquestioned obedience until he could recover the One.

Alcuin said:

I just noticed this.



Hmm… What was elided by that “(clip for brevity)”?
No, I did not “illustrate[] that Sauron does have that power” to regenerate himself per se. I said he still possessed that power “because of his Ruling Ring, which prevented his native power from becoming scattered when his body was destroyed.”

From Letter 200,

​

… Sauron appeared in [the shape of the “Children of God”, of Elves and Men]. [W]hen this shape was “real”, … a physical actuality in the physical world …, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. … After the battle with Gil-galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to rebuild, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the “will” or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of rebuilding after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear “mythologically” in the [Lord of the Rings].​

​

Sauron was able to rebuild himself precisely because the Ring was not destroyed after his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, and his power was therefore not scattered. Elrond told the Council,

​

[The Ring] have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. … But Isildur would not listen to our [Elrond’s and Círdan’s] counsel. … Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure. …​

​

Sauron laid the foundations of Barad-dûr about Second Age 1000, according to the Tale of Years (Appendix B). He did not begin the forging of the Ruling Ring for another six centuries. In fact, he did not enter Eregion until around 1200, and the Rings of Power were not begun for approximately another three hundred after that.

This means the power Sauron used to form his first physical form, the power he used to lay the foundations of Barad-dûr, the power (if any*) he placed into the Rings of Power, and the power her used to forge the One Ring was all subsequently placed into the One Ring. As long as the One Ring endured, that power, which was native to Sauron in his beginning, also endured.

Gandalf told Frodo that

​

[Sauron] needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, … and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, … and he will be stronger than ever.​

​

And later, he tells him that

​

The power of their master is in [the Ringwraiths], and they stand or fall by him.​

​

The only way to destroy the Ring is to

​

find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, … and cast the Ring in there … to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever.​

​

And from Letter 131,

​

[I]f the One Ring was actually unmade, … then its power would be dissolved, Sauron’s own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a … mere memory of malicious will.​

​

Sauron’s ability to remake his physical form was intimately intertwined with the physical existence of his One Ring. His ability to dominate wills was, to a large extent, dependent upon his physical possession of it as well: he could not see the thoughts or devices of the Elves wielding the Three Rings without it. The Nazgûl, however, were already long-enslaved to their Rings, and when face-to-face with Sauron unable to withhold their Rings from him: he took them to ensure their unquestioned obedience until he could recover the One.

Click to expand...

Hm. So it sounds like he'd invested part of himself into his ring. So, for instance, if I had telepathy, and placed that power in a circlet and the circlet is then destroyed, that power would be lost to me. Sauron had divested himself of certain powers he naturally had. It seems he gained something from this act, in this case if he's killed these powers aren't dispersed like some of his other essences, thus making his reformation easier?

Alcuin said:

Hmm… What was elided by that “(clip for brevity)”?

Click to expand...

A) In general, I usually clip text to avoid the "click to expand" thingy.

B) Specifically: I saw your statements as illustrating Sauron's regenerative power (which I still think they do), and I didn't/don't see that what you said in the clipped section as making any difference to my response.

Or in other words, to my mind, that Sauron "still" possessed that power while the One existed doesn't change that it was his power in the first place.

I certainly was not trying to put words in your mouth, and I apologize if I did, even unintentionally.
But again, I don't see how your addition (now below, with my emphasis by underlining) changes the idea that it was within Sauron's native power to regenerate a body.

Alcuin said:

No, I did not “illustrate[] that Sauron does have that power” to regenerate himself per se. I said he still possessed that power “because of his Ruling Ring, which prevented his native power from becoming scattered when his body was destroyed.”

Click to expand...

Alcuin said:

From Letter 200, (snip of letter 200 for brevity)

​

Sauron was able to rebuild himself precisely because the Ring was not destroyed after his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, and his power was therefore not scattered. Elrond told the Council,

Click to expand...

Agreed. Actually, I don't disagree with the rest of your post either.

Possibly I'm (still) missing a distinction you are making?

Fai8r enough, Elthir. We shall not belabor this matter any further.

ZehnWaters said:

So it sounds like he'd invested part of himself into his ring. So, for instance, if I had telepathy, and placed that power in a circlet and the circlet is then destroyed, that power would be lost to me. Sauron had divested himself of certain powers he naturally had. It seems he gained something from this act, in this case if he's killed these powers aren't dispersed like some of his other essences, thus making his reformation easier?

Click to expand...

Yes, that’s my position.

The matter is probably best explained in a letter JRRT wrote in late 1951 to publisher Milton Waldman, a rival publisher to Rayner Unwin of Allen & Unwin: Tolkien had become impatient with Unwin’s (as he saw it) reluctance to publish The Lord of the Rings, some three years before the publication of Fellowship of the Ring. About half of it is reprinted in Letters of JRR Tolkien as Letter 131. (“Letter 131” is a convenient shorthand for Letters of JRR Tolkien, letter number 131.) Even only half-reprinted, it is the longest letter in Letters; the rest of it was finally published as an appendix to Reader’s Companion.Sauron could not be “killed” as such. Like Saruman whose throat Wormtongue cut in the Shire, like Durin’s Bane in the Third Age and the Balrogs of the First Age, even like Gandalf atop Zirak-zigil, the organic body built up by a Maia could be rendered uninhabitable by that Maia. As I cited in the post previous to yours, (from Letter 200):The Valar were more powerful spirits than the Maiar. They normally could not be “unhoused”: their naturally inherent powers were too great to be overcome. Morgoth was an exception: he had dispersed his power throughout Arda in an attempt to dominate it and control it for himself, so that in the dénouement of the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, the Host of Valinor with the aid of Tulkas (the only other Vala present in the conflict) was able to capture him, return him to Valinor for judgment, and execute him as if he were an Incarnate. In this way Volume X of the History of Middle Earth gets its title from Tolkien’s “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” published in Morgoth’s Ring.As long as Sauron’s Ruling Ring existed, he could not be ultimately divested of his native abilities unless another great creature managed to take permanent possession of the Ring: Gandalf, and perhaps Elrond or Galadriel, for instance. (There are threads in this forum that muse upon Durin’s Bane obtaining the One Ring.) This was in fact Saruman’s desire: to obtain the Ring and seize it as his own, vanquishing Sauron in the process, establishing Saruman as Dark Lord in his place. Sauron had not divested himself of power so much as he had migrated that power to an object exterior to and separate from his own physical manifestation.

There is Russian folktale about Koschei (Коще́й) the Deathless, who hides his life force, his soul, in an exterior object, then hides that in another, and that in yet another, and so on, like matryoshka (матрёшка), nested Russian dolls. Depending upon the telling of the tale, Koschei is eventually killed; the best-known tale in the West is that of Ivan Tsarevitch, who eventually finds Koschei’s soul in an egg and destroys it, killing him for good. Ivan Tsarevitch is also the protagonist of Igor Stravinsky’s ballet The Firebird, where Ivan defeats Koschei with the aid of the Firebird.


This motif is quite ancient. There is an oft-used catalogue of folktale themes known as the Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index. This theme is ATU 302, “The Giant (Ogre) who had no heart in his body” or “Ogre’s Heart in the Egg”. Tolkien was undoubtedly familiar with these types of tales, and mentions in Letter 131 that this is “a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story.” Tales including this kind of plot are found from India to Ireland, and are believed by some folklorists to be at least 3000 years old.

I'd like to add that in the Author's notes to Osanwe-Centa (Vinyar Tengwar 39, note 5), we find plurals in the description, for example "even some of his [Morgoth's] greatest servants" became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, "and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could then continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed."

Granted, the text then says that Pengoloð evidently refers to Sauron in particular here -- yet then it's also noted that the first destruction of Sauron's body is recorded in the Lay of Leithian.

And while I realize that might not seem the case according to the constructed Silmarillion, in any event, here Tolkien (in his guise as author/s) is giving a brief description of rebuilding "haibitations", then follows immediately with Sauron's body being destroyed before Annatar/Sauron (returned) forges the One Ring.

Unless JRRT has made a mistake here with respect to the theory (which is not necessarily so, despite a seeming conflict with the narrative as it stood in QS), this indicates to me that JRRT sees no problem with Sauron rebuilding a body before the One even existed.

Or something else?

I’ve seen several references to Sauron having been disembodied at the bridge by Huan of Valinor. I do not believe this was the case, despite the 1959-1960 Ósanwe-kenta (VT vol 39). The parenthetical at the end of the paragraph at the end of Note 5 to the essay to which you refer is unquestionably JRR Tolkien’s own:
If you peruse The Lay of Leithian, whether in Lays of Beleriand (History of Middle-earth volume 3) or Beren and Lúthien, you will find lines 579-585, where Sauron is called by his earlier name, Thû:
My point is that though Sauron (Thû) had deserted a physical body, he still possessed a physical body (hröa), that of a vampire bat, which was dripping blood presumably from its neck due to wounds inflicted by Huan.

This, I contend, is a contradiction: Either Sauron inhabited the body of another creature, in this case a wolf, in the sense of “demonic possession”, which he deserted and left behind when he flew away to escape; or else he deserted his own hröa, then instantly made for himself a second hröa, which would seem to conflict with Tolkien’s other writings concerning the assemblage of hröa by Maiar.

The simplest explanation and one that avoids these inconsistencies is that adopted by Christopher Tolkien in Silmarillion: Sauron surrendered the keys of Tol Sirion and the words governing the stability of the tower to Lúthien, then Huan released him, he shifted shape (as he had already been doing during their combat together), and flew off in defeat. Ergo, Sauron was not disembodied in the First Age; his first and second disembodiments were in the Second Age in the Downfall of Númenor and the penultimate battle of the War of the Last Alliance, and his third and final, catastrophic (for him) disembodiment was at the end of the Third Age.

Otherwise I think there are too many questions and loose ends to tie up. I know Tolkien wrote Ósanwe-kenta himself when he was but in his late 60s, but I cannot see any other clear way to reconcile the many discrepancies a First Age disembodiment of Sauron would entail. In which case I propose attributing the statement entirely to Pengoloð and his presumed lack of understanding regarding the Maiar and their physical manifestations.

[unnecessary sarcasm] Well, Tolkien does often bring in Pengoloð when he wants to show a lack of understanding about something [unnecessary sarcasm]



JRRT seems to be going there [disembodiment] in Myths Transformed Text VII too, where he begins (but doesn't finish) the following sentence: "In the first overthrow and disembodiment of Sauron in Middle-earth (neglecting the matter of Luthien) . . ."

But anyway, here's my point about the Osanwe-centa reference: it doesn't matter if JRRT . . .

A) was possibly imagining an updated description here, or . . .

B) possibly forgot exactly what the Matter of Luthien said . . .

. . . because in Osanwe-centa he had just written about Sauron returning, and yet he didn't stop himself for the next sentence (in which he wrote that Sauron's body was destroyed in the First Age) due to the idea being wrong . . .

. . . or to put it another way, even if JRRT had got it "wrong" compared to what the older texts said, I would think that the general idea of Sauron rebuilding a body without the One should have arguably kicked in here -- if it was indeed problematic.

As far as Morgoth goes, in my opinion based on text VII, Tolkien seems to put a stamp on him disseminating too much power into Arda, and losing control of it . . . thus when he is slain, it will take him long ages to rebuild:

"It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwe and Namo) that, though he had "disseminated" his power far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that "he", as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as "himself" and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body," (. . .) In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout matter", what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (. . .) At least it could not yet reclothe itself."

Myths Transformed Text VII, Morgoth's Ring

The same emphasis about Morgoth "dissipating" his native powers is in Osanwe-centa, and I note too, that Pengoloð's emphasis seems to regard "some of his greatest servants" . . .

. . . and, in Myths Transformed Tolkien writes: "Melkor had corrupted many spirits -- some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) orcs." And as I read things here, Tolkien notes that these Orc-formed Maiar could not return when killed, although musing to himself "(or would not a very dwindled dead orc-state be a poltergeist?" (Text VIII).

To my mind anyway, Tolkien seems to draw a comparison between Morgoth's state after he had lost too much power, and Sauron's state after he had lost too much power (after the One was destroyed).

And I think this is partly why Tolkien characterizes two "weaknesses" that had been introduced by the making of the One Ring -- one of them being that Sauron could now be taken out "for good".

All in my opinion of course. And so far!

Alcuin said:

In which case I propose attributing the statement entirely to Pengoloð and his presumed lack of understanding regarding the Maiar and their physical manifestations.

Click to expand...

Despite tracking down every reference to Pengolod / -loð / -lodh etc. in my HoMe index in the HoMe volumes cited there, I failed to locate one bit of trivia that annoyingly rattles around my cranium: that Pengolod, on his way to Tol Eressëa, stopped over in Númenor, thus (perhaps) getting this whole "mannish tradition" nons... ... material started. Does anyone know in which arcane, deeply embedded part of Christopher's writings - a footnote to an end-note to the commentary of version C3iv of something - this nugget might be unearthed?

Well, I did not check every reference, but so far, all I can think of is a document that was copied in Numenor and saved from destruction, given that this document: ". . . is attributed, by the copyist,
to Pengoloð (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin." Vinyar Tengwar 48

If you want me to check every reference, I'll need some coins first

Elthir said:

Well, I did not check every reference, but so far, all I can think of is a document that was copied in Numenor and saved from destruction, given that this document: ". . . is attributed, by the copyist,
to Pengoloð (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin." Vinyar Tengwar 48

If you want me to check every reference, I'll need some coins first

Click to expand...

Vinyar Tengwar, yet! That's one resource I don't have.
As to coin, where was that post by 1stvermont about his book on JRRT ... ah, there it is:


Publishing a book on JRRT is one of the surest ways of separating me from some of my dough.

I was thinking of publishing a book I've written . . . titled Bilbo Baggins And The Mannish Tradition, with an Appendix about Galadriel titled Galadriel.

Foreword by "Ando" Endorfin

Artwork by "Galin"

Title needs work ...