• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

Corporeality of the Nazgûl?

I don't agree with the (it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable to other swords. This isn't stated in the description about Merry's dagger, and even Sauron himself had reason to fear Narsil reforged, for example. I think "invulnerable" to other weapons makes the Nazgul-lord too powerful -- he already has his advantages; one huge one being instilling unreasoning fear in his enemies, for example.

Merry's blade broke a spell yes, but one that knit the Witch-king's sinews to his will. Variant interpretations are possible of course, but to my mind it means that the Witch-king could not will
his unseen "sinews" (his body) to ward off Éowyn's deadly strike.

The connection between will and body was broken by a leg wound inflicted by a Hobbit -- a Hobbit wielding not a mere dagger however.

The Wraith seems to do little to try to avoid or deflect Éowyn's sword, and to me the choice of wording in the passage does not exactly imply that her reply was lightning-quick -- Merry calls Éowyn's name twice, she is "tottering, struggling up" to deliver her blow, and the Nazgul Lord does not evade her strike, or try to block it -- in my opinion he's now "vulnerable" in the tactical sense, thanks to the special blade. However, I doubt that he had no fear whatsoever of a deadly strike (as opposed to a leg wound) from a Rohir like Éomer, or some other great warrior.

The Lord of the Nazgul may even act fearless on the field of battle, or seem invulnerable to many of his foes, but that is quite a different thing from actually being invulnerable to the weapon of a potential adversary.

That interpreted, while the Witch-king may have been "brought to nothing" by Éowyn and Merry, I think it's possible that he could have returned. We are now referring to the flood here, but Gandalf notes: "You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that," said Gandalf. "The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him" The Ring Goes South

But thankfully the One was destroyed soon after the Witch-king's fall, in any case.

I admit however, that Gandalf's remark about Legolas' shot seems odd, if this is so: "One that you cannot slay with arrows," said Gandalf. "You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds."

Again, my opinion is that you can "slay" these invisible servants with arrows, you just can't take them out for good -- which is at least possibly what Gandalf means here. In any case, sometimes with Tolkien, you can't have all the relevant texts go easily your way!

Another consideration for me: it was said (Appendix A) that the Witch-king feared Boromir (another Boromir). Why fear him, did he have a special blade? I think the answer is in the text rather: "a man strong in body and in will."

My emphasis on will.

You've got to stand up to the WK first, then you've got to make that first blow count!
 
Oh shoot, I just remember that in NoME Tolkien wrote about this some. I'll need to wait until much later tonight before I can get to it. There was a drawing and he was criticizing that they drew a physical hand for one of the Ringwraiths. If I remember correctly he said it should have been gloved and may have gone more into it from there.
Hm. Looks like he was just commenting how how their limbs weren't visible and they would have worn gauntlets anyhow as they were riders. Also their hoods should have hung over their faces enough to conceal their invisibility.
 
"One that you cannot slay with arrows,"

you can "slay" these invisible servants with arrows

Come again?
2021-12-09 11.05.24.jpg
 
Last edited:
How are we to take this? Literally? It wouldn't seem so, as they're able to ride and wield weapons, The Witch-King is even able to wear a crown.

Metaphorically, then? The problem is, with fantasy, it's difficult to sort out the metaphorical from the literal. Or as one critic put it, "In fantasy, there is no safety in metaphor".
Yes, the "shape to their nothingness" further adds mud to the waters, but the fact that he can wear a crown on an invisible head flat-out contradicts the idea that mere clothing gives them form. It seems like Tolkien was maybe straddling the fence on the nature of the Ringwraiths and never got around to defining their nature or preferred to leave it ambiguous.

In "The Hunt for the Ring" in Unfinished Tales I could find no indication that their clothing gave them solid form or that they needed horses to get anywhere. Instead it says they traveled unclad for a time and then picked up the clothing and horses somewhere.
 
Come again? 🤔

Ok . . . again :)

I admit however, that Gandalf's remark about Legolas' shot seems odd, if this is so: "One that you cannot slay with arrows," said Gandalf. "You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds."

Again, my opinion is that you can "slay" these invisible servants with arrows, you just can't take them out for good -- which is at least possibly what Gandalf means here. In any case, sometimes with Tolkien, you can't have all the relevant texts go easily your way!

"You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that," said Gandalf. "The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him" The Ring Goes South
 
Ok . . . again :)



"You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that," said Gandalf. "The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him" The Ring Goes South
I was going to argue this, because the text says, after the Witch-king is felled, "a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."

Then I realized that he could have come back is not disproven by this because the Ring is later destroyed and he just never gets the chance. So this line might well basically foreshadow the destruction of the Ring.
 
lol Just imagine them waltzing around naked like the Invisible Man in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film ...
I watched this again a few days ago on DVD, and the comparison to the Nazgûl did occur to me - including the matter of "invisibility gadgets" having to "know" what besides the person using them they have to make invisible, which kind of leads to no end of silliness ... :rolleyes:
... (Dorian Grey was played by the actor originally cast as Aragorn).
The guy would have only turned 27 after original filming began, and have been 28 when they finished. What, a "Pippin Aragorn"? I found even Viggo to be a tad on the young side for the role ... 🤨
 
I watched this again a few days ago on DVD, and the comparison to the Nazgûl did occur to me - including the matter of "invisibility gadgets" having to "know" what besides the person using them they have to make invisible, which kind of leads to no end of silliness ... :rolleyes:
lol Often. I think it works when it's an ingested substance as that would imply interaction with tissues to cause the invisibility. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer it was just magic so it worked however the plot needed.
The guy would have only turned 27 after original filming began, and have been 28 when they finished. What, a "Pippin Aragorn"? I found even Viggo to be a tad on the young side for the role ... 🤨
Do we know at what rate they aged, though? I mean, what did 87 look like for a Dúnedain?
 
Do we know at what rate they aged, though? I mean, what did 87 look like for a Dúnedain?
In Carl F. Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth", "Part Three: The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitants" there is chapter XII "The Ageing of the Númenóreans" which I just glanced at - a very short chapter.
But as per Appendix B, there is the entry (after 2956 Third Age about the first meeting of Aragorn and Gandalf):
"2957-80 Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries."
And the next 38 years as a ranger, during which time we can assume that the amenities were far below what he experienced while serving Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor. He would, I believe, have borne little or no resemblance to any Númenórean of his age "wallowing in the comforts" of his fortunate island.
He has far more in common with Beren, Túrin and Tuor of the First Age than anyone else, and a whelp of 28 would have been just hopeless in the role. Unless you pile on the prosthetics to a degree that you wouldn't recognize the actor.
 
To answer again again, yes, I'm basically saying that it's at least possible that when Gandalf says this: "One that you cannot slay with arrows," said Gandalf. " You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again." . . .

. . . with "slay" he basically means this (again again): "You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that," said Gandalf. "The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him."

So if Sauron's still around, you can't slay/destroy them . . .

But you can take them out, bring them to nothing, or "kill" them by separating their unseen bodies from their spirits -- somewhat like you can "kill" Men by separating their seen bodies from their spirits -- in Tolkien's larger mythology, the spirits of Men (are believed to be) "undestroyed", even though they must depart.

The oath-breakers didn't depart, and appear to be ghosts, wielding fear. The wraiths inspired fear like ghosts, but they could be "brought to nothing" for a while (slain in that sense). I note how Tolkien goes "to the trouble" to say that it was not known if the blades of the Oath-breakers could bite, or strike the living . . . they only needed fear as a weapon.

The Wraith-lord, however, wielded physical weapons, and the Nine were taken out by physical things. And again, why should the Witch-king fear Boromir? Did this Boromir have a special dagger like Merry's? I say he rather had a notable will . . . to stand against fear . . . then at least that part
of the battle is won, and you have a chance.

Moreover, what kinds of "doors" are possibly opened if the Nine are truly invulnerable to "regular" weapons? They've been around for a long time, but even in Frodo's day, for example, what stops the Nine from flying over Gondor's walls and defeating all the King's horses and all the king's Men?

And the King too!

Even Humpty Dumpty couldn't put them all back together again!
 
I should be working instead of posting…

Here's [an ambiguous statement about the Nazgûl] from Gandalf:

'. . .the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.'

How are we to take this? Literally? It wouldn't seem so, as they're able to ride and wield weapons, The Witch-King is even able to wear a crown.

Metaphorically, then? The problem is, with fantasy, it's difficult to sort out the metaphorical from the literal. Or as one critic put it, "In fantasy, there is no safety in metaphor".
I’m going to come at this from a slightly different angle. Gandalf’s statement is polemic: “contentious rhetoric intended to support a specific position”. But I’ll go even further: This is an example of religious polemic in The Lord of the Rings.

Let me explain. Gandalf is a Maia sent to Middle-earth by the Valar. He acts as their agent against Sauron, a Maia who is breaking “the rules” regarding how Ainur are to treat Incarnates, Elves and Men, and has a long and notorious history of doing this. We know from Tolkien’s musings (Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”) that by this point in Middle-earth’s feigned history, Sauron was claiming to be Morgoth Returned, that he held himself to be a god-king, and on that basis demanded worship from his followers. (See also Letter 183.) Gandalf makes a strikingly similar statement when he confronts the Witch-king at the broken gates of Minas Tirith:

Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master.
​
Now, what ultimately awaited not only the Witch-king but all the Nazgûl was not “nothingness” but death and damnation when the One Ring was finally destroyed. (“Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die…”) Their spirits, their fëar, were destined to leave Arda as were those of all Men (including Hobbits), but their spirits were prevented from departing by the necromantic effects of their Rings of Power. Gandalf is expressing their status and fate as “nothingness”. We could interpret this as incorporeality, but I think that misconstrues Gandalf’s finer point: The Ringwraiths were “spiritually empty.” Like the simile of lembas, the Elves’ waybread, to the Eucharist, the existence of the Ringwraiths is rhetorically (and poetically) compared to (described as) “nothingness”. It is, practically, in the imagined world of Arda, technically inaccurate, but as a religious statement – a polemic – it is on point. Gandalf is a priest, a prophet, an emissary, a minister, of one religious viewpoint. The Nazgûl are ministers of another diametrically opposed religious viewpoint. The Lord of the Nazgûl taunts Gandalf at the Gate:

Old fool! … Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!
​
This is a confrontation of a religion of Life versus a religion of Death. It is a little glimmer of Tolkien’s Roman Catholicism peeking through the veil of the tale.

[H]ow are [the Nazgûl] to don the clothing without corporeal form?
The[ Nazgûl] became invisible, yes - that seems to be one side effect of a Great Ring on Humans (Big and Little Folk). Now I've stated before that I consider The Hobbit, author-published though it be, to be shaky as canon. But when things get threatening at the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo puts on the One Ring - but still gets conked on the head and passes out. Sauron may have been able to convert the Nazgûl into a perverted form of Elves, with their unnatural wraithing (natural for very old Elves)… I don't buy the "embodiment by clothing" theory. They were "simply" (permanently) invisible. … [T]hey couldn't walk through walls like "popular" ghosts…
I think Olorgando is right on target here. After Frodo awakens in Rivendell, Gandalf tells him that whenever he wore the Ring, he was already “half in the wraith-world [himself], and they might have seized [him]. [Frodo] could see them, and they could see [him].” The Nazgûl had become permanently invisible. Gandalf describes it to Frodo (FotR, “Shadow of the Past”) exactly this way, using exactly the word Tolkien uses to describe what happens to Elves in Middle-earth after many millennia:

[I]f [a mortal] often uses [a Great] Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. … [S]ooner or later the dark power will devour him.
​
(Notice the little metaphor at the end, by the way: “the dark power will devour him.” Sauron doesn’t literally eat the Nazgûl, but he does consume their lives, replacing their wills with his: akin to the metaphorical “nothingness” into which they must eventually fall.) Fading was something that didn’t happen to Gollum, and Gandalf considered the fact that it had not taken place remarkable.

By the same token, when Bilbo wore the Ring, he could whack spiders with Sting and cut their webs; he could steal food from the Elf-king’s tables and from the village of the raft-Elves; and he could steal the great two-handled cup from Smaug’s lair, all while invisible. Frodo and Sam could likewise manipulate the world around them while invisible while wearing Sauron’s Ring: in fact, I think Sam was wearing the Ring and invisible when he knocked himself unconscious trying to follow Shagrat and Gorbag through the Undergate to Cirith Ungol from Shelob’s Lair. I think the same was true for the Nazgûl: they could wear clothes, manipulate horses’ reins, beat on doors and break them down (at Crickhollow), use swords and Morgul blades, &c., but they had long been rendered permanently invisible through using their Rings of Power. In his confrontation with Éowyn, the Witch-king was able to break both her shield and her shield-arm (left arm: she seems to have been right-handed) with a single blow of his mace. Last but not least on this subject, the Black Riders left heavy boot-prints in the little dell in which the Rangers had hidden the stack of wood Aragorn and the Hobbits used to make fire to fight the Nazgûl at Weathertop, and later to keep Frodo warm.

[The Nazgûl’s] ability to perceive our world [was] dimmed - so the[ir] taking time to get back home through territory they can only imperfectly perceive - sort of through a kind of fog - makes sense.
I think that’s right, too. In FotR, “Knife in the Dark”, Strider explains,

[The Nazgûl] do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us… And at all times they smell the blood of living things… Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence – it troubled our hearts … before we saw them; they feel our[ presence] more keenly. Also … the Ring draws them.
​
Speaking of the noon sun, in The Hobbit, “Riddles in the Dark”, Tolkien as narrator explains that the Ring made you “invisible; only in the full sunlight could you be seen, and then only by your shadow, and that would be shaky and faint.” And later as Bilbo struggled to escape the guards at the Back Door,

[T]he sun came out from behind a cloud and shone bright on the outside of the door – but [Bilbo] could not get through.

Suddenly one of the goblins inside shouted: “There is a shadow by the door. Something is outside!”

Bilbo’s heart jumped into his mouth. He gave a terrific squirm. Buttons burst off in all directions. He was through, with a torn coat and waistcoat, … [leaving] bewildered goblins [to] pick[] up his nice brass buttons on the doorstep.
​
When Sam wore the Ring, he saw the Orcs that passed nearby “like a phantom company, grey distorted figures in a mist, only dreams of fear with pale flames in their hands.” (TT, “Choices of Master Samwise”) When he reëntered Shelob’s Lair to pursue the Orcs as they carried the unconscious Frodo to Cirith Ungol, “It no longer seemed very dark to him in the tunnel, rather it was as if he had stepped out of a thin mist into a heavier fog.”

Remarkably, Merry had a similar experience as the Black Breath took hold of him after he struck the Witch-king:

through a mist he looked on Éowyn’s fair head.
​
As Théoden’s surviving household knights carried their fallen king and Éowyn back toward the City,

through a mist … [Merry] saw the van of the men of Gondor approaching.
​
After they entered the City, Merry fell behind and became separated from the Riders:

he was walking in a darkness… But suddenly into his dream there fell a living voice. … He looked up and the mist before his eyes cleared a little. There was Pippin!
​
I think this indicates that the Black Breath inflicted the “other side” or “shadow world” upon unprotected Mortals; but I suppose that can be a debate for another thread.

[The Nazgûl] seem to have been invulnerable to bodily hurts massively more so than they would have been in human form…
Were they just completely invulnerable then? How else could they continue to exist once experiencing acts that should have been fatal?
However you want to put it, they were apparently invulnerable to "normal" hazards, unless a counterspell, such as those incorporated into the Barrow-blades, were brought into play. This is what allowed Eowyn to "kill" the Witch-King.
One of the more “attractive” powers of the Great Rings, at least to Mortal Men, seems to be that they cannot be killed as long as they possess them – or, after they have fallen completely under the necromantic power of their Rings, those Rings “possess” them. (Sauron seems to have held physical possession of the Nine Rings at the time of The Lord of the Rings, though some dispute this.) In FotR, “The Ring Goes South”, Gandalf explains that the Ringwraiths survived the flood at the Ford of Bruinen:

You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that. The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him. We hope that they were all unhorsed and unmasked, and so made for a while less dangerous…
​
Now, they could still interact with the world around them without their visible raiment or horses, and they could no doubt terrify any Men they came upon, but they could not navigate well since their senses of the normal world were distorted, nor could they appear as “normal” (if menacing) Men to interact with normal society.

As for whether or not they could be injured: I think they certainly could! Aragorn attacked them with burning sticks at Weathertop, and according to Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader’s Companion, the five Nazgûl, including the two most powerful, the Witch-king and Khamûl, retreated out of fear of Aragorn, “who seem[ed] to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger’.” The Nazgûl retreated and dispersed. Tolkien’s notes explain that

[The Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful)…
​
The Witch-king perceived that he was “in great peril … by the way” should be interpreted as meaning that The Witch-king perceived that he could be seriously injured in his assignment. And not only the Witch-king, but all his companions.

When Legolas shot the wingéd mount of a Nazgûl from the sky over Anduin, there is no reason to believe the Nazgûl was uninjured by the fall. He might have broken bones, for instance: but he wasn’t going to die. No, the power of Sauron was in him though his Ring of Power; and even though (if) Sauron held his Ring of Power, that Ring still dominated his physical being, his hröa, as it is called in Tolkien’s mythos. When Frodo and his companions crossed the Brandywine by the Ferry, Khamûl is afraid of the water (CJRT remarks somewhere that nowhere does his father explain that; but I cannot tonight find the citation), although the flood at the Ford of Bruinen demonstrates reasonably well that they could not be drowned. And on Weathertop, Aragon explains that “these Riders do not love [fire], and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.”

I opine that every injury to the Ringwraiths could be repaired by sorcery. This would explain their fear of water: I’ve heard that drowning victims are supposed to become euphoric, but my experiences as a boy who could not swim in deep water were most unpleasant! Repairing damage from fire might be one of the more difficult sorceries; and unless their sense of pain were lessened, burns are terribly painful! The Ringwraiths were no longer growing, no longer healing naturally: their lives were being stretched, thinned, “like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.” Pain and unpleasant sorcerous or necromantic recuperation could well explain the Ringwraith’s fear of fire, fear of water, and especially their fear of an outstanding warrior in control of his fear, a warrior like the Steward Boromir I of Gondor or the Chieftain Aragorn II of Arnor.

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. (Letter 210)​

I don't agree with the (it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable to other swords. This isn't stated in the description about Merry's dagger…
Normally I agree with your positions, Elthir, but on this one I’ll prefer the “(it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable”. What Tolkien did say about the Barrow-blades is cited in Reader’s Companion in the chapter on “Knife in the Dark”:

[The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently “only a Ranger”. …

It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted…, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king] … was actually dismayed. … [A]bove all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. …

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.
​
May God forgive me: I am such a fool! I should be asleep instead of posting!
 
Last edited:
[The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently “only a Ranger”. …​
​
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted…, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king] … was actually dismayed. … [A]bove all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. …​
​
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.​
​
May God forgive me: I am such a fool! I should be asleep instead of posting!

Goodness, how poorly did Sauron inform them about what they were supposed to be doing?

S: "Go get my ring."
W: "Anything I should be concerned about?"
S: "Nah, you should be fine."
 
( . . .) Normally I agree with your positions, Elthir, but on this one I’ll prefer the “(it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable”. What Tolkien did say about the Barrow-blades is cited in Reader’s Companion in the chapter on “Knife in the Dark”:
( . . . )​
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.​

Okay but what of the huge door being opened by nine (normally) "invulnerable" bad guys who wield weapons (and can be hurt by physical things like fire and water) -- do they need fear anyone without Merry's type of dagger? Why fear Boromir?

And I'm aware of this quote, but on the other hand, what of this one (letter 210): "There is no fight. Sam does not "sink his blade into the Rinwraith's thigh", nor does the thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)"

The Wraith falls down. One doesn't necessarily fall down from being stabbed in the thigh with a dagger, but I might fall too if I could no longer will my limbs to do what I wanted them to do.

:)

That said, it may be that Tolkien was musing about this make-you-vulnerable idea in the quote you provided, but (and not that you said otherwise) I don't feel it's a necessary conclusion based on what happens in the published text, including the description of the blade that follows the stab . . .

. . . and to me, Tolkien illustrates a "necessary" concern with respect to the Oath-breakers, or at least
(I think wisely) acknowledges to the reader that they were not necessarily a "ghost force" that yet could kill the living (Tolkien is arguably thinking of "too" powerful as regards the First Age too: for whatever reason, we don't see flying dragons until the end of the First Age and the Host of the West is at the door).

As I say, even Sauron can't slip into Gondor in spirit-form and slay Kings or Stewards willy nilly.
He's incarnated, and he fears being "de-bodied" . . . and we don't (or at least I don't) get the impression that this magic type of "make you vulnerable" weapon is the norm in Gondor, Rohan, or Imladris, for examples.
 
And I'm aware of this quote, but on the other hand, what of this one (letter 210): "There is no fight. Sam does not "sink his blade into the Rinwraith's thigh", nor does the thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)"
What was Tolkien referring to here? Was he confusing Sam with Frodo?
 
Okay but what of the huge door being opened by nine (normally) "invulnerable" bad guys who wield weapons (and can be hurt by physical things like fire and water) -- do they need fear anyone without Merry's type of dagger? Why fear Boromir?
Elthir my friend, I believe I can answer you, and at the same time shed some light on how the Great Rings affected Elves and Men necromantically – for Sauron, who led the Elven-smiths of Eregion to forge them as they were, is The Necromancer.

Necromancy is magic concerning death and the dead. In Tolkien’s world, this involves the relationship between the body, the hröa, and the spirit, the fëa. Throughout the legendarium, the natural progression for Men was for their spirits (fëar) to part from their bodies (hröar) because of old age, disease, or injury, and depart Arda. The natural progression for Elves was for their spirits (fëar) to remain with their bodies (hröar) from birth until the end of Arda, unless they were killed. (Some Elves also departed their hröar from grief: Fëanor’s mother Serindë and Lúthien Tinúviel are two notable examples; but these are exceptions.)

The problem for Elves, particularly in Middle-earth, was that their fëar “consumed” their hröar, so that the hröa eventually became invisible (Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, “Aman”):

[A]fter the vitality of the hröa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin … to “fade”, until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.
​
This fading was of great concern to the Elves. It did not happen, or took place much more slowly, in Aman (Valinor). But Elves in Middle-earth had begun to notice it before the middle of the Second Age, because preventing their physical fading seems to have been one of the temptations Sauron, disguised as “Annatar”, offered to the Elven-smiths of Eregion: It was one of their motivations in making the Rings of Power.

What does Sam say of Lórien?

[T]his is more Elvish than anything I ever heard tell of. I feel as if I was inside a song.
​
Galadriel has preserved a bit of the old world, the world that was before fading, within her borders. Aragorn warns Boromir,

There is … in this land no evil, unless a man bring it hither himself.
​
What does Tolkien say of Rivendell?

[S]uch was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from [the] minds [of Frodo and his companions]. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present.
​
And in The Hobbit,

[Rivendell] was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all. Evil things did not come into that valley.
​
I cite all this to reiterate what Gandalf told Frodo about the Three Rings:

[T]hey were … made [for] understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
​
In Letter 131, Tolkien goes into some detail about this (please pardon such a long citation):

[The Elves] wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of “The West”, and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people … was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with “fading”, the mode in which the changes of time … was perceived by them. They became sad, and their … efforts all really a kind of embalming – even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts. We hear of a lingering kingdom, [Linden]; and of other[s], such as Imladris (Rivendell)…; and a great one at Eregion … adjacent to the Mines of Moria, the major realm of the Dwarves… There … smithcraft reached its highest development. But many of the Elves listened to Sauron. He was still fair … and his motives and those of the Elves seemed to go partly together… Sauron found their weak point… With the aid of Sauron’s lore they made Rings of Power (“power” is an ominous and sinister word…).

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. “change”, viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is … loved … – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor… [F]inally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (“The Necromancer”…): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
​
Let us focus for a moment on this last sentence, rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. I strenuously argue that the Elves had no desire to be made invisible: that contradicts what Tolkien said earlier in the passage, that the Elves “became obsessed with ‘fading’.” And those Elves who had lived in Valinor, likely including Celebrimbor, could already see into the “invisible world,” the shadow-world, spirit world, whatever you’d like to call it: the “wraith-world,” if you will: it is Tolkien’s spirit world. But Sauron is The Necromancer. How would his powers be used to allay the Elvish obsession with “fading”?

I propose that the necromancy of the Rings of Power was to prevent the fading of the hröar of their Elvish wielders. It interrupted the natural progression of Elvish physical development in Middle-earth: It stops the consumption of the hröa by the fëa (i.e., it prevents physical decay) in Elves. This would be most enticing to an Elf!

But what is their effect on mortal Men? Well, it still halts the natural progression of the relationship between the hröa and the fëa, but in this case, it prevents physical death. That’s a variation of necromancy, but in this case, instead of inducing death, it holds the fëa, the spirit, to the hröa, the body. You can get hurt, really badly hurt, but you can’t die. And if you consider this, it could become a kind of living hell.

No doubt their Rings of Power gave their nine mortal keepers enhanced powers in combat, strength, command, sorcery. It made them effectively “immortal” in the eyes of other Men – warriors and commanders who (seemingly) could not be defeated, could not be overcome, particularly if the wielder of a Ring took some precautions. (Like not sticking your head in a guillotine: that could be messy, carrying your head under your arm!) But they could be hurt, and like anyone else who is injured, you have to heal. As Tolkien says in Letter 210,

[The Ringwraiths] have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness.
​

But what happens to an injured Man when the Ring finally reaches its Elvish goal of arresting change? Well, he remains a injured Man! Unless he is a competent enough sorcerer or conjurer to heal himself – or Sauron helps him heal. And this explains an odd thing Tolkien writes in “The Hunt for the Ring” (Unfinished Tales): After the Ringwraiths returned from their unsuccessful hunt for “Shire” and “Baggins” in the Vales of Anduin,

[T]hey met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay.
​
Why would the Witch-king be “filled with dismay”? One good reason could be that Sauron could torture a Ringwraith without lessening his usefulness as a minister of his will. And by the same token, why would the Witch-king be afraid of Gondor’s Steward Boromir I? Because Boromir had control of his fear, he was a great commander and personally an outstanding warrior, and thus he had the ability to injure even the Witch-king.

Why would five Nazgûl run away from Frodo at Weathertop? Because Frodo had a Barrow-blade, and even though he was terrified, he tried to stab the Witch-king with it! The Barrow-blades could break the spell that bound a Nazgûl’s hröa to his fëa – his hröa could really and truly be killed like any normal Man’s body, at the least leaving that Nazgûl “houseless” like an Elf that had lost its body but refused the summons to Mandos, but at worst consigning him immediately to his eternal doom. (We are not told which: I am on the side of the Witch-king’s spirit, his fëa, becoming “houseless” until the destruction of the Ruling Ring, when it passed on to its eternal doom.)

Submersion in water might be unpleasant for a Nazgûl: he’d have to hang upside down to get the water out of his lungs, and I personally find water in the lungs most unpleasant! Fire injuries are extremely painful, and the magic needed to heal them might be unpleasant, too. A Morgul blade drew a Man’s body into the wraith world, while a Barrow-blade drew a Ringwraith’s body back into the real world, making him vulnerable to having his body severed from spirit.

This explanation allows the Rings of Power to do the same sorts things to both Elves and Men: upset the normal equilibrium between their bodies and their spirits, their hröar and fëar. But the outcome of upsetting that natural balance (or progression) is different depending upon whether the wearer is an Elf or a Man. For the Elf, it means his body doesn’t fade. For the Man, it means his body doesn’t die – unless the spell is broken by one of what we call the Barrow-blades made by the Dúnedain of Arnor. The natural powers and abilities of Elves and Men alike are enhanced by the Nine Rings. But while they may lessen the degree of injuries, or reduce the likelihood of injury, they should not be seen as proof against injury.

And yes, this does imply that one or more of the Nazgûl could be stitched up like Frankenstein’s monster due to treating old injuries.

By the way, I don’t think Tolkien ever refers to the Nazgûl as “invulnerable”.

───◊───

[W]hat of this [quote] (letter 210): "There is no fight. Sam does not "sink his blade into the Rinwraith's thigh", nor does the thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)"

The Wraith falls down. One doesn't necessarily fall down from being stabbed in the thigh with a dagger, but I might fall too if I could no longer will my limbs to do what I wanted them to do.
When Merry stabbed the Witch-king in his contest with Éowyn, I think he took out one of the Witch-king’s tendons behind his knee, so that he was injured (he cried out in pain), he no longer had stability to remain standing, and the swing of his mace went wide of his target: to wit, Éowyn’s head. Even if Sam (in Zimmerman’s proposed alteration of Tolkien’s tale) missed any major tendons and only stabbed into muscle with a Barrow-blade, I expect it would still have been a painful experience like none other the Witch-king had encountered since becoming enslaved to his Ring: I think that was Tolkien’s point; besides, Tolkien was immensely annoyed with Zimmerman’s proposed alterations of his tale.

That said, it may be that Tolkien was musing about this make-you-vulnerable idea in the quote you provided, but (and not that you said otherwise) I don't feel it's a necessary conclusion based on what happens in the published text, including the description of the blade that follows the stab…
I can’t prove my position. I can only offer what seems to me a sound and reasonable explanation that, to my mind, works well with what most of us can agree is material Tolkien presents in the rest of his legendarium.

Tolkien illustrates a "necessary" concern with respect to the Oath-breakers, or at least (I think wisely) acknowledges to the reader that they were not necessarily a "ghost force" that yet could kill the living…
I think the situation with the Oath-beakers is entirely different from that of the Nazgûl. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could all attack and injure others while wearing the One Ring, and they could also be injured while wearing it. I don’t know that the Dead Men of Dunharrow did more than terrify the mariners and soldiers of Umbar: Gimli remarked that at Pelargir,

Pale swords were drawn, but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear.
​

As I say, even Sauron can't slip into Gondor in spirit-form and slay Kings or Stewards willy nilly. He's incarnated, and he fears being "de-bodied"
First of all, I don’t think Sauron still possessed the ability to shift shape. I think he and the Balrogs were stuck in the incarnations they wore. (The same had become true for Melkor Morgoth by the end of the First Age, and he was a Vala!) Before the destruction of his first avatar in the Downfall of Númenor, Sauron could change his appearance at will, as we see in the fight with Huan at the Bridge of Tol Sirion, or when he disguised himself as Annatar to deceive the Mírdain of Eregion. I think this ability was lost after Númenor.

I certainly agree that Sauron feared being unhoused: thus his reaction at seeing Aragorn in the Orthanc Stone with the Sword of Elendil: it scared him! and that’s exactly what Aragorn meant to do: frighten him, put him off balance, in order to draw his military might out of Mordor so that Frodo could more easily enter and accomplish his mission.

[W]e don't (or at least I don't) get the impression that this magic type of "make you vulnerable" weapon is the norm in Gondor, Rohan, or Imladris, for examples.
I absolutely agree with you, Elthir. I think the Barrow-blades are most unique! I believe it’s significant that Tom Bombadil chose them for the Hobbits, knowing that they would sooner or later have to face the Ringwraiths: he clearly knew what they were and why they were made. I think Frodo used one on the Barrow-wight, but all it did to the Barrow-wight was sever its hand at the wrist, splinter immediately (I suspect that’s a property of the blade’s striking a creature in the “wraith world”), and piss it off mightily: It cried out, then snarled. The spell that allowed an evil spirit to inhabit a corpse in the barrow (perhaps that of the last Prince of Cardolan) was different from the one that bound the hröa of the Witch-king to his fëa. Bombadil broke the Barrow-wight’s binding spell.

Like their counterparts the Morgul blades, the Barrow-blades are special purpose weapons. (Seeing the effects of Morgul blades might well have inspired the forging of Barrow-blades.) I imagine all of them were crafted by the same smith before the Great Plague that wiped out the inhabitants of Cardolan. I think they were forged in Cardolan (and were thus in the graves there), and I cannot see how they were made without the assistance of either Tom Bombadil (which would immediately explain his recognition of the weapons and their purpose) or one or more of the surviving Mírdain in Imladris. (Some of the Mírdain apparently remained in Rivendell until the end of the Third Age; I think it was they who reforged the shards of Narsil into Andúril.) Somehow the Dúnadan who forged those blades came to know how to terminate the power of a Great Ring to hold together the hröa and fëa, and I think that knowledge could only come from one of the smiths who had worked on the Rings of Power or from Bombadil, assuming he understood how Rings of Power operated. With that in view, I’d have to say the more likely source of information is one of the Mírdain. But I whole-heartedly agree with you that these are unique weapons. By the way, it’s notable that while Bombadil recognized their usefulness, neither Aragorn nor Gandalf nor Elrond makes any comment on them: I don’t know that they realized what they were. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is suggestive.

───◊───

I can’t prove my proposition. I offer it as an explanation because I think it makes sense, I think it fits together well with other things we know about Tolkien’s works, and I don’t believe it contradicts anything he wrote either in canon or in his private musings (that have so far been published). I’ve spent over 10 hours working on these two posts and written well over five thousand words: I cannot justify spending any more time on this. I hope some of you find it useful, but if you disagree, that’s certainly your prerogative.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top