Could the servants of 👁️Sauron have won without him?

[FrankSinatra]

What If?

What if, when Sauron was destroyed, the orcs had not lost their bottle, but continued to fight alongside the men.

Would Aragorn still have won his war?

Who would have led the orcs, if they had defeated Gondor without Sauron?

 

[Celebthôl]

my guess would be that the orcs would have destroyed the minut (sp) army of Aragorns and therefore Aragorn wouldnt have won it, and i guess the Nazgúl would have taken command...

 

[FrankSinatra]

Cant

They couldnt have done, because they 'fizzled out' also, remember, when the ring was destroyed.

Would Saruman have gained any influence?

 

[Celebthôl]

ah hah i remember, hmmm, no Saruman was already very weak (in the matter of havin no power), so i guess maybe a balrog or somthing...

 

[FrankSinatra]

Yes

He still managed to daunt the 'strong as steel' shire folk, so who knows.

If he ever got near an orc again.

 

[Lantarion]

Well as far as any possible Captains go, Sauron, Saruman and the Nazgûl can be ruled out because latter two were killed and the former was diminished into a pitiful little thing.
But I suppose the Orcs had great chieftains among them, who could have at least attempted uniting the dazzled Glamhoth.. But as was stated in the RotK, chapter "Mount Doom" I think, the Orcs became sort of paralyzed when the Ring was destroyed; it's almost as if they didn't actually want to fight, but that they were bound to Sauron's will by the very existence of the Ring. (Ok, ok, I won't start a debate about Orcish free will..)
But I think you are wrong, Celebthôl, in saying that Aragorn's army was 'minute' in any way: I don't remeber/know the figures, but all the remaining soldiers of Gondor, the remaining Dúnedain and the Rohirrim (who were, after all, allies of Gondor) must have made up an amazingly large armed force! And the Orcs would by now be almost leaderless, as was stated, so they would have little or no organization or tactics.

 

[FrankSinatra]

Tactics

But would Aragorns tactics be outweighed by the sheer brute force of the orcs?

And do you think that Saruman could have returned and dominated again?

Afterall, he had no ring, yet managed to dominate his army AND the wild men with his own inherrent power.

 

[BlackCaptain]

The sevants of Sauron could have won without Sauron

Ive thought it wierd, that 700,000 orcs, trolls, troll men, easterlings, and haradrim wouldnt just finish off the Captains of the West at the Moranon. I mean, sure Sauron is gone, and I'd be mad too if my leader was destroyed, but how could they have lost the battle? Sure, about 100,000 went crazy, killed themselves, or ran away, but did the Captains of the West really have strength enough to still defend themselves from 600,000 leaderless war-trained ... things...?
This is one of the things that I could just never grasp when reading the books...

 

[YayGollum]

oh well. That's where you remember that it's fantasy. It's just like the emperor's fleet above Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi. They didn't know that he was killed, but his will had been helping them fight better the whole time. Without Sauron to keep his minions (who are usually portrayed as not being the smartest characters in the books) focused, they'd lose hope and not really care and stuff. Besides, the evil torturer Gandalf had that evil ring that messed with people's brains so they'd fight better, too. I haven't really researched the numbers in the armies. I remember that it's fantasy and that the good guys are supposed to win.

 

[Anamatar IV]

I tend to trust JeffF's Armies of Middle-earth on topics like these. Apparently there were only 61, 000--65, 000 soldiers of Mordor in that battle. The Orcs, being the cowards as they were, probably fled from all the noise and fire and smoke being spewed from Mount Doom. As told, many slew themselves. The Men were captured for the most part and later set free. So the Men I suppose gave up when they saw the destruction of Sauron.

Don't forget that it wasn't just Sauron being destroyed: flames spewed from Mount Doom, Barad-dur crumbled and rocks were thrown.

 

[Ithrynluin]

MorgulKing how did you possibly come up with the number 700,000?!?
I also trust JeffF's estimations. Besides, there is proof that the armies of Middle Earth were much much smaller. The Rohirrim had 6000 riders on the Pelennor, and the Haradrim were thrice as many (18,000).

 

[Hadhafang]

The soldiers of Mordor also saw their overlords take off right at the start of the battle. Could you imagine what the moral of a modern army would be if they saw their commanding officers run away from a battle at first sight of the enemy? Also the squadron of 80 foot raptors diving out of the sky might have contributed to their desire to flee. Air superiority is everything

 

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
MorgulKing how did you possibly come up with the number 700,000?!?

i believe that in the book, i dont have a quote right now, said that the enemy had 10 times the amount as the captains of the west and 10more er somthin
I could have just read wrong though...

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by MorgulKing
i believe that in the book, i dont have a quote right now, said that the enemy had 10 times the amount as the captains of the west and 10more er somthin
I could have just read wrong though...

The Captains of the West had about 6,000. Ten times 6,000 is 60,000.

 

[BlackCaptain]

and another 10 is 600,000... I forgot to calculate the 1000 that left for Cair Andros.

 

[Anamatar IV]

forces ten times and more than ten times their match would ring them in a sea of enemies.

That means 10 or more times than the 6, 000 the Captains of the West had. So 60 000-65 000 is correct.

 

[krash8765]

600,000 for the forces of Mordor? You must be mistaken.

 

[Celebithil]

If they had 600,000 Sauron would have been ruling the world along time ago.

 

[Celebithil]

I think that even if Aragorns army was defeated by the orcs that without a central figurehead they would end up bickering among themselves like the ones who captured Merry and Pippin. Eventually those left in Gondor, Rohan and maybe even some of the men of Dale or those under Beorn would gather and be able to wipe them out.


To quote a good movie "They are sheep, mere sheep easily dispersed by removing the shepherd"

 

[FrankSinatra]

Yes

They were not the most disciplined of troops...they even spoke about 'going back and sneaking off with some lads' during the war.