Council of 🧝Elrond

[Greenwood]

Greenwood, what you are saying is if the author says Smaug was the last of the great worms of Middle-earth in the Hobbit and that is not contradicted by the text of LotR; then, the author amplifying his thoughts in HoMe or UT or Sil by saying that more existed in the Withered Hearth would not be substantiated.

Grond

Yes. In the world of Middle Earth found in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, there would indeed be no more great worms.

If Tolkien had not rewritten the Riddle Game in later editions of The Hobbit we would be left with an irreconcilable difference between The Hobbit and LOTR. He did, however, make the change. If there are differences between The Hobbit and LOTR and the posthumously published works, they are indeed at this point in time irreconcilable, because only the author can make any necessary changes definitive, not an editor, even if the editor is the author's son. (Unless the son/editor can produce documentation showing the author had delegated such authority to said editor -- I know of no such declaration in Tolkien's case.) I guess you can say that I hold Tolkien's published words in greater "reverence" than even the most fanatic purist or NPW. It is one of the reasons I resent others putting words in Tolkien's mouth. (Please note, Grond, I do not say or believe that you have ever done this.)

 

[Grond]

Just wait a while Greenwood and I may. The author is dead and some viewpoints expressed are so far from what I perceive to be the intent of JRRT, that one day this will happen.

 

[Walter]

Greenwood, I can see Your point and having spent an hour or two in a darkroom myself, I can relate to Your example, though I haven't had the chance to - knowingly - see one of Porter's pictures.

But to me the fact that there often and in many ways is no such thing as "the absolute truth" about Tolkien's works - which to realize at last thankfully has been enabled by the fact that C. Tolkien published most of J.R.R.'s works, that have been abandoned by the professor and most of which somehow relate to the Hobbit and LotR, posthumously - makes it only more fascinating. Wouldn't it be sad if the world had not seen the Sil, UT and HoME?

 

[Greenwood]

Wouldn't it be sad if the world had not seen the Sil, UT and HoME?

Walter

ABSOLUTELY!! As a Tolkien fan I find them fascinating and wonderful. As someone who engages in research professionally and has an intense interest (nonprofessionally) in many aspects of history and the development and history of ideas in various fields related to my interests, I find The Silmarillion and the rest even more fascinating because of the glimpses they gives us of Tolkien's mind at work. I dearly wish he had gotten more of them into the same kind of exciting and wonderful story The Hobbit and LOTR are, but alas it was not to be. I just think that people should always be aware that there is a difference between material he published and posthumously published work.

If you are at all interested in photography, particularly landscape and nature photography I urge you to try to get a look at some of Eliot Porter's work. I believe you are in Austria, but I expect a major library there might have some of his books of photographs.

 

[cortezthekiller]

I can't comment on the Simarillion, HoME, etc. because I've yet to read those. Though I'm planning on reading Sil as soon as I finish this time through LOTR. As for the Council of Elrond, the first time I read LOTR I was in middle school. I found this chapter a painful challenge of endurance to get through. I was into the whole adventure thing, I guess at that age I didn't care too much about the "why", I just wanted to watch it all unfold. For some perspective, I also remember completely skipping over every single song and poem in the story.

I re-read LOTR in high school, and lo-and behold, the Council and Many Meetings chapters captivated me, almost like sitting around a campfire sharing stories and legends with Gandalf, Elrond, and the guys. More importantly, it really helped flesh out the adventure story, that I so love.

Now, I am reading LOTR all the way through for the third time at the ripe young age of 30. But in the many years between I have always picked up my battered paperbacks of LOTR to read bits and pieces (chapters) that I've always loved. The Council of Elrond is one of the ones I always comeback to most often. It gives such a beautiful look into the depth of JRR Tolkien's creation, Middle Earth.

One movie comment, sorry. I've personally come to the conclusion that Peter Jackson's vision of LOTR is much like my vision from the first time through. A good adventure story, "why bother with the details?" I liked the movie just like I liked the books my first time through, but boy wouldn't it have been nice to hear some of those songs and poems? And get that feeling like your sitting around the campfire trading tales with Gandalf and Elrond?

 

[Grond]

Cortez.... welcome to the forum. Your post has brought me all the way back to 1973 when first I read the works during a Thanksgiving break from college. It was a 5 day affair, beginning with The Hobbit and ending with The Lord of the Rings. I, too, remember skimming all the details because it was too hard to keep up with all the names and places. The battle scenes were too cool. I struggled throught the first two chapters of FotR and then became enthralled by the Race to Rivendell. The Council was boring... but, Oh My God, Moria and the Balrog..... yada yada yada, but you get the drift. It wasn't until my fourth reading in 1975 that I started to "study" the works and try and make sense of the names and places and history and to actually reference the Appendices.

Well, I've come the long way around to simply confirm your post. The book during the first reading is just a good and exciting adventure. As it is explored over and over again, it can become a history that is so compelling that you take it with you in your heart.

And, yes, you guessed it. I'm a fanatic!!

 

[WackerBacker]

Thanks for the welcome, Grond. If it's debate you want, this subject is as good as any. Some seem to want definite answers about these things (see the Uruk/Uruk-hai thread) which I think is pointless. This collection of works is fairly neatly layered in its complexity which is what makes it such a good read 4 and 5 (and more) readings later. I'm just starting my 4th (1st in over 15 years) - I'll be back when I'm finished with Fellowship.

Fanatic and lunatic would describe us all at some phase or niche of life.

 

[Brown Ribbon]

as a kid I used to read stories that would, at some point, see the heroes taking a break from their travails to eat shepards pie and drink tea in a farmhouse, while the farmer soked the fire and his wife brought them more hunks of fresh bread...

Epic adventures need these kind of chapters, 'inn' chapters as I call them, when the evils of the day are safely barred outdoors, and the hereoes kick back. It's very important for scene setting, and for signifying a change in the plot. The whole quest becomes an awful lot more serious after the Council of Elrond, the threat of the Enemy is far more tangible and menacing.
The quest leaves the Shire, comes into danger, reaches Farmer Maggot, takes stock (another 'inn' chapter), enters the Old Forest, falls into peril, gets to the Prancing Pony (antoher 'Inn' Chapter), take stock, journey into deeper gloom, reach Rivendell, take stock, go into Moria, nearly get wiped out, reach Lothlorien (another 'inn' chapter) take stock......

And so it goes, there are action chapters and there are plot chapters. What I love so about The Council of Elrond, is that this is the great Council of War, the free decide how to fight Sauron and a strategy is born. It also is the first clear indication we get of just how much esteem Gandalf is held in amongst the wise (something to offset our surprise at him being led into a trap by Saruman).

I truly love this chapter and felt it was one of the bits of the movie they glossed over a little too much.

Similar chapters in the next two books would be 'Window on the West', 'Treebeard', 'Minas Tirith', 'Flotsam and Jetsam', 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit', and 'The Last Debate'. There are, of course, more but you get my drift

 

[Tar-Elenion]

bump

 

[Confusticated]

I'm of the opinion that it is up to each reader to read the books in whichever order they like, and to view them however they like, I think this would involve them integrating the various works at their own rate.

It seems that some people want to get to the bottum of what Tolkien's latest ideas were, for me, at this point at least, there is little use in that. I think each tale should stand alone, and does not have to be consistent with others.

I think that what is important is that we enjoy the books, this means a person will take different aproaches than others do.

I like the bit in The Return of the Shadow where it is believed among the hobbits that Bilbo had a wife and rumored that she must have been ugly since he seened to be keeping her hidden.

What is told in The final version of The Lord of the Rings did not happen any more than the silly hobbit rumors about Bilbo's wife did.
Both happend in one man's imagination, were written down and shared with the world. When we read them, they happen in our imagination.

It's just a matter of having different versions of a story, don't we get that all the time in life? Look what we do with it; we can choose to believe one because we like it most, or because we deem the source is most reliable, or we can decide not to take any story as fact, and just take them into consideration, and we can decide to believe parts of the story, but remain open or skeptic about others.

I think that is what all of these tales are, food for the imagination and for analytical thought. I think will automaticly come up with their own beliefs about the history of Middle-earth, and I think that any attempts to come up with a version that best reflects what Tolkien latest ideas were, are guesses and estimates even if they are taking chronology into consideration. It is probably done more often for the enjoyment of the means than the end. We know what Tolkien wrote down and in some cases when. So we know part of what he thought at this or that time.

I do not, and did not upon first reading, find the Council of Elrond boring. The least interesting part for me, is the bulk of the Sam Frodo and Gollum thread.

Lantarion - I enjoy the deeming of the doom too