Denethor and Immediate 👑King Recognition

[HLGStrider]

This is a thread to accompany my Faramir and Immediate King Recognition thread which long ago went the way of the dinosaur and hid on the bottom of Loch Ness...

This refers more to the Appendix than the actual novel... but both are discussable.

In the story of Thoronguil's service in Gondor (and we all know who Thoronguil is by now... am I still spelling that wrong?) it says that Denethor was suspicious and suspected there was a plot to supplant him...

Now why was he suspicious?

Aragorn was at the time a year younger than Denethor, of course, at his prime of life and probably had a strong, noble, even kingly pressence, though we all know he could hide it, and Denethor was "Keen sighted." Was this all that gave it away? Just the aura of Aragorn?

Or was it something concrete? Did our Ranger slip in his guise? Was he wearing the ring of Bahahir too visibly or carrying around the infamous shards?

Was he acting too strangely?

Obviously he was popular, but he left when this popularity was at its heighth (the Corsair incident).

Was it that strange that a man of valor would travel from Rohan to Gondor and fight for the kingdom?

Or was it just Denethor's keen sight and if so we are down to immediate king recognition... du duh du... evil music...

Speculation?

 

[Niniel]

Interesting... I would say that Denethor was just jealous of Thorongil's popularity, and he feared that this stranger might be more popular than himself. On teh other hand, he might recognise that Thorongil was not just someone who wanted to fioght for Gondor, but that Denethor very much worried about who he really was. I don't know if Denethor knew about the Rangers and their connection with the former Kings, but if he did he might be afraid that someone was going to claim the kingship.

 

[Eriol]

In several instances we hear of the 'air of Númenor' being recognized, even by the hobbits. I suppose Thorongil would be easily recognized by Denethor as a Dúnadan (in no one was the air of Númenor more present, and in his success he was probably apt to appear as kingly as he did to Éomer and his Rohirrim when they first meet -- hard to disguise that). And Denethor also knew (?) that he was not from Gondor -- since probably all the Dúnedain from Gondor knew each other, or at least their families. So, a noble Dúnadan appears from nowhere to fight for Gondor... Coupled with the 'keen sight' of Denethor, I think he would guess Aragorn's identity (a probable candidate for the throne).

He would not like it.

Isn't it a hint in his talk with Gandalf that he knows quite well who Aragorn is and that he will NOT yield to his claim? I don't think the Palantír could give such specific information -- I suppose he remembers Thorongil.

 

[Niniel]

This opens up another interesting question: what would Denethor have done if he had not died? He would not have yielded the throne to Aragorn, so what could Aragorn have done to get it? Nobody ever mentions the possibility that Denethor would not give up the throne, but some people at least must have thought about it (especially Aragorn and Gandalf).

 

[Eriol]

I think it depends on your opinion about Denethor. I know people who think he is a major jerk. Myself, I think he is a good guy that despaired. To be as great as he was and even so despair is a terrible thing. I suppose after hope prevailed (since Aragorn did not press his claim until the end of the War) and Sauron was defeated, Denethor would yield.

If not... there would be a political confrontation, but I think Denethor would lose. Imrahil and the other commanders were already swayed to Aragorn. He had displayed the banner of Elendil. The people were with him (the hands of the king...). Denethor was anything but stupid, and would probably yield by political reasons, even if his heart were against it.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Niniel
This opens up another interesting question: what would Denethor have done if he had not died? He would not have yielded the throne to Aragorn, so what could Aragorn have done to get it? Nobody ever mentions the possibility that Denethor would not give up the throne, but some people at least must have thought about it (especially Aragorn and Gandalf).

Mmm, the same question has occured to me. We know that Arvedui's claim was rejected, on the grounds that he was not a descendant of Anarion but of Isildur. But doesn't this also apply to Aragorn? He still is the heir of the North Kingdom. Why would the Gondorians choose differently now and accept him? Of course, the situation at the time of the War of the Ring was much more different. The King that "will return" was only a tradition and nobody expected any pure blooded heir to appear for Gondor. Again, the Stewards might reject Aragorn's claim. But after his deeds at the war, none would do so. I believe that even Denethor would accept him as the King. The real question is whether he would accept him beforehand.

 

[aragil]

First off, I'm not sure you could say that Denethor posessed the throne, so it wasn't really his to yield up. Second of all, Aragorn could (if he so chose) claim descent from Anarion through Firiel (Arvedui's wife), something that Arvedui could not. Finally, at the time of Arvedui there were other qualified candidates for the Kingship that were natives of Gondor. 1000 years of History proved that by Aragorn's time this was not the case. There was no alternative person for the Kinship, and the Stewards were bound to rule only in the absence of the King. Denethor would have had absolutely no justification for refusing to grant Aragorn the Kingship.
Finally, in Denethor's defense, I'd like to remind everybody of his words to Boromir. Boromir would always complain that his family should be acknowledged as Kings rather than Stewards, and Denethor always corrected him. This makes me think that Denethor would have been willing to yield up governance to Aragorn.

 

[gate7ole]

Good point about Firiel. I knew that I had read sth about Aragorn being the rightful heir to BOTH kingdoms. Thanks for reminding.
But still, the Dunedain of the North didn't claim their throne all the years until the War of the Ring. It was a natural choice, since they had to prove that they actually deserved it and Aragorn represented them in the best of ways.
I'm still not convinced though that Denethor would accept a heir of the throne. He would be sceptical about the proof of his ancestry from Anarion. His thoughts to Boromir were from a safe position when the "return of the King" was no more than a tradition. Of course it's all speculation and poor Denethor died before showing us if he was a wise man.

 

[HLGStrider]

So it was just a fluke of Numenorean blood?

I think it would depend a lot of Denethor's mood, whether he'd give up the throne, and how weakened by the Palantir he was. He definately did not like Aragorn's claim for the house of Isildur was in his eyes inferior... according to what he said when he was about to torch himself.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
according to what he said when he was about to torch himself.

Testimony in that state of mind is not admissable as evidence. He was certainly a proud man, but he was also a man of his word and very cogniscent of his position- Steward, not King. Which reminds me, he couldn't relinquish the throne because he had no claim to it. The Stewards never sat on the throne in Minas Tirith- they sat on the chair a step or two lower. This was more than symbolic- they would not claim Kingship, and were ruling in good faith until the King returned. Aragorn came bearing all the proper bits and pieces- Sword of Elendil, Banner of the High Kingship, etc. Denethor would have had no legal grounds to oppose Aragorn, even if he had chosen to. He was extremely proud of his office of Steward, and I don't think he would have violated this office by opposing Aragorn with no legal backing to do so. All just IMO.

gate7ole- I have huge problems with the Dunedain of the North not pressing their claim to Gondor. They descended from Kings, and so, in Gondor where the position of King was inherited, they 'deserved' it as much as any other descendant of Anarion who had actually sat on the throne. Please don't tell me that the entire race got together and came to the consensus that they'd "wait for 1000 years to see if an Aragorn came along". That would be wishful thinking on their part, to put it mildly. During those 1000 years the southern kingdom was in peril, and the presence of a true King would have (IMO) had a huge impact on the balance of power in the third age- perhaps Gondor could have even resisted Sauron's return to Mordor, thus providing a rather easy journey for Frodo to the cracks of Doom. When your Kingdom is being threatened by extremely hostile forces is no time to sit back and be modest. "I don't deserve your Kingship, so why don't you lot fend for yourselves while I stay up here and defend Hobbits." Not the behavior I'd want from my King, I can tell you.

 

[HLGStrider]

It does lead to another question... IF Aragorn, as Thoronguil, had marched back into Gondor after defeating the Corsairs and pulled out his broken sword would people have made him king? He had the popularity for certain... but would he have the ability to make them change the judgement that had been set by his ancestor's before...

I think we've had a discussion before on whether or not Aragorn would've been accepted without being the hero of Pelinor Fields.. I can't remember what was decided.

 

[gate7ole]

So, aragil what do you suggest about the Dunedain of the North?Do you have another theory or do you simply accuse them of being inactive?
Judging by the your post, I guess that you follow the second option. In part I agree with you that they were supposed to have acted long before the situation reached the dead-end of the War of the Ring. There might be a few instances that their arrival would be accepted by the Gondorians. Then again, the Stewards were many times powerful men, wise but old-fashioned and a claim from the North would not be always well accepted. Ecthelion had Aragorn under his command and was greatly impressed. But would he give the sceptre to him that to his son?
These difficulties the Dunedain of the North knew them well. Also, their people were the of the North. They too had problems and they might didn't want to leave them unprotected, while they would be organizing the defences of Gondor. The best guess I can do is that they weren't really concerned about the kingship, but dealt with the "lower profile" jobs of the Rangers, having in a way accepted their fate. That is why Aragorn stood above all his ancestors. He may have been helped by the circumstances, but he also didn't forget his destiny as a king.

 

[HLGStrider]

He couldn't if he wanted to continue the line and be true to Arwen...

I've often considered the fact that Isildur's line was under a burden not to take their throne, almost a curse, until Isildur's mistake of not destroying the ring had been undone. There is no backing for this, but I like the idea.

 

[aragil]

gate7ole- yes I lean towards the second option, but with a twist. I think Tolkien allowed the Dunedain to stay in the North because he preferred long stretches of history, feeling that it added historical depth to his works. I'm perfectly willing to accept this, especiall, as I enjoy the novel so much. However, with accepting it come the caveat that the Northern line looks a little cowardly for 1000 years. Their people were not just in the North, as the crowning of Aragorn confirms. The majority of their people were in the South, and as Kings in Tolkien's world, their duty rested with their people. The fact that they preferred to protect the relatively few Hobbits and Breelanders means that they effectively ignored the much greater need in the South. I don't think that claiming the Southern Kingdom would have resulted in them neglecting the Northern duties. The southern kingdom had manpower resources that could have been useful in the North, but it didn't work vice versa.

Of all the Northern line, Aragorn is in part forgiven. He gave the Southern Kingdoms what they needed- leadership under the guise of Thorongil, and for a short while Gondor experienced a resurgence in military success. I'm not saying every chieftain of the North could have brought around this sort of success, but they could have at least tried.
Another reason to forgive Aragorn is that it is implied he had some sort of foresight in the matter- he might have known to wait until the War of the Rings. However, if you try and extend this excuse to the 1000+ years of the Chieftains then it gets stretched a little too thin. It's one thing to wait a few years in your life, it's quite another to think that maybe someone 15 generations down the line will take care of it, IMO.

HLG- I also like the idea, but I see one problem with it. By claiming the southern kingship the chieftains could have taken a much more active role towards vindicating Isildur- keeping Mordor free of evil so that Frodo could just walk in and drop the Ring off, for instance. Sitting back and waiting for your ancestor to be vindicated is less admirable than going out and actively trying to vindicate him, IMO (not that the Rangers were completely inactive, but you get my drift).

As for whether or not Aragorn could have been accepted without being the hero of Pelannor- I think so. He was already the hero of Umbar, and being descended from Anarion (through Firiel) without a rival for the throne gave him two advantages poor Arvedui didn't have. I want to stress again that Denethor and Aragorn did not hold the same office. Aragorn was a King, Denethor was a Steward, whose primary job was to govern Until the Return of the King. Denethor could not refute Aragorn's legitimacy, nor could he refuse a legitimate heir to the throne. What possible basis could Denethor use to reject Aragorn's claim to the throne??

 

[HLGStrider]

I think he ultimately could not, though he could attack Aragorn's lineage or his suitablity... only delay tactics. I prefer to believe that, if he was not deeply under the influence of the Palantir, he would've given in peacefully, perhaps with Boromir steaming at him.

I imagine that Aragorn's line would've faded as quickly an Anarion's did if Arduvi had taken the throne. It took the struggles of the north to bind them togethera gainst Sauron.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
I imagine that Aragorn's line would've faded as quickly an Anarion's did if Arduvi had taken the throne. It took the struggles of the north to bind them together against Sauron.

I might be inclined to agree with you, but that doesn't excuse them from trying. Just as Elrond, Gandalf, et al said the Ring quest was most likely to end in failure- they still tried.