Denethor seems more a tragic character than a villain

Tar-Elenion said:

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345

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It's funny, because Half-Elves basically choose to be elves or humans, but everyone else (pace D&D) treat them as half-human, half-elven.
(I also think Tolkien elves look substantially more like humans than D&D/fairy elves do. They had lower sexual dimorphism than humans but the males weren't effeminate twigs, and could pass for humans, and Tolkien made a point of saying people drew Legolas too thin.)

Only some half-elves get to choose (Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and his children, Elros and, possibly, his child.
Otherwise, anyone with mortal blood is automatically mortal (unless Manwe grants other doom).
I don't recall Tolkien saying that Elves "had lower sexual dimorphism than humans", and it is more that some Men could pass for Elves, but yes Tolkien's Elves are not like D&D elves.
On the drawing of Legolas CT says:
"Long afterwards my father would write, in a wrathful comment on a ‘pretty’ or ‘ladylike’ pictorial rendering of Legolas:

He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship."
BoLT 2

I don't recall Tolkien saying that Elves "had lower sexual dimorphism than humans",

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Been years since I read it, but yeah, he said there was less difference between male and female elves. The women were stronger, proportional to elf lords, than human females. (And less difference in height - and the females were randier than the males). Now I don't recall if he went directly into their physique, but I'd say it's implied, since their greater strength wouldn't have come through magic. And, of course, beardless men. And elf men were a bit slimmer and longer-limbed than humans overall.

But, you can be lean and beautiful without looking like a girl. I always thought 'vikings combined with models'. Or Bruce Lee at 6'6"

Addendum: I am still looking for the citation on heights, but in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar

Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.

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He said "there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."
Dimorphism generally refers to form.
What Tolkien said, in one place, regarding height:
"In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than 6 ft. in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than 6 ft. 6, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller."
Descriptions of Characters
So about 6 inches difference.
A quick google search shows a difference of about 5-6 inches being average in the US and UK.
Beardless except when they did have beards (Cirdan) in the third cycle of life. Or sometimes in the second (Mahtan).
If Elves are generally taller, they would generally have longer limbs.

If your strength and speed don't come from magic, though, that implies you have more muscles. That is how one moves.

More muscles?
It suggests you are better able to use the muscles you do have.

Tar-Elenion said:

More muscles?
It suggests you are better able to use the muscles you do have.

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Not if the men and women are closer. Would the women be for some reason more able to use the muscles better than the men? Because if there's less difference, and they're both equally efficient, the female has to have more muscle mass, relatively speaking, for there to be less divergence. Efficiency can explain their superior average strength, not the difference. In fact, because of the androgyn effect of testosterone, men are actually stronger than women adjusting for muscle mass and size, as well, in humans. So if there's less of a difference between male and female elves that would imply even more muscle mass for women, for the shrinking of divergence.

Which isn't to say female elves would be 'jacked', just that they have more muscle for their size (compared to male elves) than human women would (compared to male humans).

This also has nothing to do with our pal Denethor. 😆

The comparison is to female mortals. So use their muscles better than female mortals.
And again, sexual dimorphism relates to form/appearance:
"sexual dimorphism, the differences in appearance between males and females of the same species, such as in colour, shape, size, and structure, that are caused by the inheritance of one or the other sexual pattern in the genetic material."
"

But if female and male elves are equally efficient in the use of their muscles, but the women are relatively stronger than human women (each compared to their male counterparts) then the female elf must have more muscles (compared to male elves) than human females do (compared to male humans). Unless there is some reason female elves are more efficient than male elves, which I don't think is implied anywhere. And muscles are a big component of body shape.
This is compatible with both male and female elves being slimmer than humans of the same sex, because of their superior efficiency. But the difference must be less between the sexes.

Tolkien was not a biologist and never spoke of androgyn effects, so it's possible he never thought about this. But it is entailed, if you assume some continuity between humans and elves and that elf females are not mysteriously more powerful for their size than male elves.

Whew. I’ll take all the above into consideration at my next Comparative Elven/Human Anatomical Development; Similarities And Divergences examination. Thanks.
Kidding aside, it’s an interesting discussion. I’m stuffing it into the potential “topics for entry into the rebuilt Great Halls of Speculation” pile.

Ent said:

Whew. I’ll take all the above into consideration at my next Comparative Elven/Human Anatomical Development; Similarities And Divergences examination. Thanks.
Kidding aside, it’s an interesting discussion. I’m stuffing it into the potential “topics for entry into the rebuilt Great Halls of Speculation pile.

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As long as they don't look like completely androgynous twig people with bug eyes.

Back to Denethor...

Yes, he is a deeply tragic character. Endowed with wealth, insight, wisdom, knowledge, strength, power, responsibility, and position, he decided to fall into despair, abandoning his responsibilities, then suicide and attempted murder on his son

Ugluk said:

Back to Denethor...

Yes, he is a deeply tragic character. Endowed with wealth, insight, wisdom, knowledge, strength, power, responsibility, and position, he decided to fall into despair, abandoning his responsibilities, then suicide and attempted murder on his son

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He's also a tragic character in the correct sense - someone who's own virtues drive them to their doom. A lot of people say 'tragedy' to mean 'a bad thing happened', but Tolkien wrote real tragedies.

In all this, we need to keep in mind that Tolkien portrays Denethor to be the victim of his own choices as well, just as Tolkien portrays virtually every other character to be, in his works. Denethor's tragedy is the result of his own decisions along the way as is almost always the case.

Tolkien properly demonstrates choices leading to a fall with repentance and 'restoration,' (Boromir), a fall to a descending spiral into greater corruption with lack of repentance (Saruman, Morgoth, Sauron), a fall leading to entrapment and eventual insanity (Denethor), a fall leading to isolation and prolonged agony (Gollum), and more.

He also presents choices that lead to success at personal cost (Galadriel refusing the ring to her own diminishment).
And of course choices that result in a fall with ongoing consequences, but the choice is of such magnitude to so many the inevitable fall is pardonable. (Frodo).

Tolkien is all about 'choices and consequences.' Thus, the 'real life' feel to all of his characters, situations and events.

An interesting study is of each character and the choices Tolkien allows us to see laid before them, what they choose, and what the consequences are including how those characters handled the situation and its aftermath.

Very instructive for those who want to be authors themselves..! "How to present realistic characters" (and situations into the bargain) - study Tolkien.

Gloranthan said:

He's also a tragic character in the correct sense - someone who's own virtues drive them to their doom. A lot of people say 'tragedy' to mean 'a bad thing happened', but Tolkien wrote real tragedies.

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Tragic in both the classic Greek sense, as you say, but also in the Christian sense, in that it was his choice (other characters had the same or similar virtues and choices, but chose rightly) he refused to repent when given the opportunity.

As you say, Tolkien wrote (and understood) real tragedies. As a whole however, LOTR, is not a tragedy, though suffused in sadness at times. This highlights the tragic characters within it.

Ealdwyn said:

What "acts of evil"?? He was not corrupted by Sauron. There's not one act that was motivated by evil.

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‘So passes Denethor, son of Ecthelion,’ said Gandalf. Then he turned to Beregond and the Lord’s servants that stood there aghast. ‘And so pass also the days of Gondor that you have known; for good or evil they are ended. Ill deeds have been done here; but let now all enmity that lies between you be put away, for it was contrived by the Enemy and works his will.’ ”

I think after closer inspection you'll find there was.

Ugluk said:

Tragic in both the classic Greek sense, as you say, but also in the Christian sense, in that it was his choice (other characters had the same or similar virtues and choices, but chose rightly) he refused to repent when given the opportunity.

As you say, Tolkien wrote (and understood) real tragedies. As a whole however, LOTR, is not a tragedy, though suffused in sadness at times. This highlights the tragic characters within it.

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Lord of the Rings has something that a lot of pretentious literary fiction and edgy culture seems to despise: genuinely heroic and benevolent people. Aragorn is, like, a sincerely good man. Even though I'm a philosophical nihilist, I still admire and respect people like that.
And Denethor had major flaws but he was a pretty good guy for most of his life.

CheriptheRipper said:

‘So passes Denethor, son of Ecthelion,’ said Gandalf. Then he turned to Beregond and the Lord’s servants that stood there aghast. ‘And so pass also the days of Gondor that you have known; for good or evil they are ended. Ill deeds have been done here; but let now all enmity that lies between you be put away, for it was contrived by the Enemy and works his will.’ ”

I think after closer inspection you'll find there was.

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As I have said: act need not be motivated by evil intent in order to be evil. Some of greatest evils in history were a result of good intent. Denethor's acts were undoubtably evil, and were contrived by the Enemy in a sense that Sauron pushed Denethor to these extremes, but it doesn't mean Denethor himself was evil.

So unless you mean "motivated by external evil", but for Denethor, his acts were motivated by despair.

"contrived", "motivated", "pushed", "external" vs. "internal", etc. These are all very complex issues... issues that our 'legal system' wrestles with all the time.
Into the mix is thrown "responsibility". When 'driven to a certain point' by circumstances, is a person still 'responsible' for their actions nonetheless? An entirely different question.

Sauron used his usual schemes of lies, deceit, and fear to let Denethor see only what he wanted Denethor to see.
Denethor did the interpreting.

The entire exchange of some 3-4 pages between Gandalf and Denethor needs to be carefully evaluated.

In the end what we see is simply a man driven mad by responsibility, hopelessness, despair and failure in his charge as essentially the last bastion of Men against the enemy (from his perspective).

It's true Sauron "contrived" many of the events, armies, abilities of Denethor's palantir, etc. to bring an end to the times as they were. (Note the change in point of reference Gandalf makes at this point in the discussion.) That said, remember it was Saruman whose Orcs killed Boromir, not Sauron. So certainly Sauron did not 'contrive' that situation.

No, what we come down to is simply a man who has been broken by responsibility and events, and is no longer in possession of his faculties, so is impaired in his decision making.

Gandalf's appeal is both to Denethor's sense of morality, and to his sanity. But Denethor cannot be restored.

Would the 'act' of taking Faramir's life along with his own have been an 'evil' act? Certainly. Is the 'act' of Denethor burning himself alive an 'evil' act? Gandalf certainly saw it as such.
"‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’ answered Gandalf. ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’

Yet all Gandalf's final efforts failed.

Clearly Denethor's 'motivation' was pride and despair, just as were the motivations of those he chose to follow from of old. He himself spoke of it. "We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West." So he was not without a certain awareness of what he was doing. He was wise, before he fell into folly.

Overall he is a picture of tragedy no doubt. But were his final decisions without an evil motivation? Is he still not 'responsible' to make correct choices unto the end?

These are the question and battles of our Legal system at every turn. At what point is a person no longer 'responsible' for what they choose to do.

if we can forgive Frodo for failing at the end and in pride and despair claiming the ring for his own, can we not also forgive Denethor at the end of his tremendous pressures to protect Middle-earth from Sauron, losing his favored son, sending his other son to be murdered (though he survived), etc.??

Was there evil in Frodo's motivation to claim the ring? Certainly. Was there evil in Denethor's motivation to burn himself and his kin in his failures? Certainly.
They did have their own motivations. They were also both broken people unable to further resist the motivations that ultimately took them.

I do not personally think we can separate 'motivation' from 'action' so simply as we often try to do. What needs to be assessed is the circumstances before and during the events to understand all contributing factors.

i.e. we are ALWAYS responsible for what we decide to do. Nobody else. The motivations and the choices are our own, within the moment. The only question is who we are at the point we make those choices.

A simplistic example: When we are 'feeling well' we treat people nicely. Our motivations are good. When we are feeling a little ill, our resistance may be down, and we may ill-treat someone and need to apologize later. Our motivation was quite selfish. When we are dying...what do we do...? Do we 'not care' any more and just 'let fly' with all our thoughts etc. at others' expense?

The day constantly comes for each one of us in many many ways when we are faced with the choice to 'do good or evil'. How do we fare? Yes, it's just this simple.

Aldarion said:

As I have said: act need not be motivated by evil intent in order to be evil. Hell, some of greatest evils in history were a result of good intent. Denethor's acts were undoubtably evil, and were contrived by the Enemy in a sense that Sauron pushed Denethor to these extremes, but it doesn't mean Denethor himself was evil.

So unless you mean "motivated by external evil", but for Denethor, his acts were motivated by despair.

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Oh yeah for sure, I agree on the miss characterization by the film and think the book Denethor wasn't inherently evil sure.
I think after all the years of mental battle he at last despaired. I think I agree with you.

Edit: I was a bit too hurried in my original post, Ent just worded it way better.

"We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West."

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@Ent what exactly does he mean by this?