Did Frodo, of his own free will, agree to take the ring to 🌋Mordor?

[Eljorahir]

Did Frodo, of his own free will, agree to take the Ring to Mordor? Or, was he a piece on a chess board being moved by one of the Valar? Note Tolkien's wording: "...some other will was using his small voice."

The Council of Elrond:
Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'
Elrond: 'If I understand aright all that I have heard,' he said, 'I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will...'

This question always makes me uncomfortable because I can't seem to settle on an answer. Also, it brings to my mind the song, "Free Will", by RUSH. One of the lines is:
A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

This is an interesting thought. I think it is honestly a joint effort. No doubt, the Valar had some part to play in it, because whether you are adventurous or would prefer the comfort of your Hobbit Hole, few would willingly choose to go on a mission which was almost pronounced as a death sentence. Unless for the 'greater good' but since Frodo doesn't even fully get the concept of all the other lands and has lived in the Shire for almost the entire current duration of his life at that point, the 'for the greater good' while it could be noble and heroic, probably wasn't at the forefront of his mind.

Now certainly, the Valar tend not to force things upon people, particularly choices that are for the person themselves to make. They may nudge in one direction or other, but at the end of the day, it is the person who must make that choice. I think he had a docile and kind heart, one that was humble and receptive to what others were saying. Unlike others present at the Council, he didn't trust in his own wits or race. While many of them wanted the Ring, he didn't really want it, at that point.

Doubtless, part of it was in tandem from the fact that it was his Ring, and he would probably feel a bit bad if someone wound up dying from trying to bear his burden. From the very beginning, Frodo really seems to care about others. He cares about Bilbo, Pippin, Merry, and he is only too kind to even those he does not know. I definitely think the Valar and Iluvatar had some serious roles to play in this all however. After all, it is even said that Frodo was 'meant' to find the Ring, by 'other powers beyond what was Evil' (I'm no doubt paraphrasing here-- forgive me!) So having those 'other powers' be the Valar and Iluvatar is totally plausible.

In the end, I think it was a joint effort between Frodo's purity and goodness of heart, Gandalf's friendship with him and wisdom, and the Powers at work beyond the World Seen (Presumably the Valar and Iluvatar.)

Very good topic. Thoroughly enjoyed giving it some thought. Thank you.

 

[Ent]

It is my humble belief that, as we hear from the beginnings with and in the Song, it is Eru who is behind events otherwise unexplainable. Gandalf alludes to such as well at one point at least.

The end is His design, and there is 'nothing that can be sung' outside of His will. No doubt the whole ring/darkness business was a part of Melkor's song in rebellion against Eru, but Eru circumvented Meklor at every turn, and established what and how things would ultimately be.

Does this speak of a certain element of 'predestination' ? Absolutely.

We tend to forget that predestination and free will both exist. They exist side by side and in fusion, frankly, neither working outside the other.

A very long explanation could result, but this is not the place for it I fear.

Just ponder this: We tend to think "it is EITHER 'free will' OR it is 'predestination'. Nothing could be further than the truth.

 

[Ent]

predestination

p.s. - as old as the argument is, 'predestination' has always been better explained as 'predetermination' and the consequences needed (and set in place) to achieve it.

 

[Eljorahir]

I'll add another little textual tidbit to the topic. (hmmm...a topical textual tidbit...sorry.) This is from "The Fall of Gondolin (The Last Version)":

Ecthelion meets Tuor and says: "You have come to the Last Gate. Know then that no stranger who passes it shall ever go out again save by the door of death."
And Tuor says: "Speak not ill-boding! If the messenger of the Lord of Waters go by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the Fountains, hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters!"
Then Voronwe and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marvelling at his words and voice. And to Voronwe it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.

Note the similarity:

Frodo after accepting the burden: [Frodo] wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
Tuor after responding to Ecthelion: ...to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.

This is one of my favorite "Tolkien tidbits".✨

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

This is one of my favorite "Tolkien tidbits".✨

Love that!

 

[Lósendir Elsurion]

I'll add another little textual tidbit to the topic. (hmmm...a topical textual tidbit...sorry.) This is from "The Fall of Gondolin (The Last Version)":

Ecthelion meets Tuor and says: "You have come to the Last Gate. Know then that no stranger who passes it shall ever go out again save by the door of death."
And Tuor says: "Speak not ill-boding! If the messenger of the Lord of Waters go by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the Fountains, hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters!"
Then Voronwe and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marvelling at this words and voice. And to Voronwe it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.

Note the similarity:

Frodo after accepting the burden: [Frodo] wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
Tuor after responding to Ecthelion: ...to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.

This is one of my favorite "Tolkien tidbits".✨

When I read your starting post in this thread this scene is what immediately came to my mind!
Even though I read LOTR again just recently I did not notice the similarity. Very interesting indeed!

 

[Aramarien]

"At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice."

I've often thought about this line. Tolkien always seems to espouse the theme of Free Will. I feel that although Frodo desired to stay in Rivendell with Bilbo, deep in his heart he felt and knew what was the right thing to do. I think even then without fully comprehending it, he knew that he had some ability to resist the Ring and had experience with it. I don't think he wanted to go on the quest, but felt he must do it. That feeling deep in his heart could have been a seed that was planted by Eru, but in the end, it was always Frodo's CHOICE. He spoke his words with an effort, because he was afraid and really did not want to do it.

Tolkien gave us some insight on how some characters would use the Ring's power: Gandalf, Galadriel, Boromir, Gollum, and even Sam. But Tolkien did not say what was tempting Frodo. I think the only chink that Frodo might have gotten as the journey went on was a bit of pride: it was HIS quest, the task was given to HIM. This small bit of possessiveness of his task (and possessiveness of the Ring itself that would have taken anyone) was the chink that the Ring was chipping at with Frodo.

Frodo must've been going through great turmoil. When he was recovering from the Nazgul blade in Rivendell, Gandalf noticed a bit of transparency in Frodo's arm and felt that it was to be expected since he was still recovering. Sam noticed this transparency in Ithilean when Frodo was sleeping and thought that there was a light there for those who could see it. The Morgul blade weakened Frodo too, so again he was susceptible to even more turmoil.

In addition, on Amon Sul, when Frodo was wearing the Ring, he felt caught between Sauron and Gandalf. Two opposing powers hovering over him. Finally, Frodo became himself. Frodo, himself, took off the Ring and made the decision to continue to Mordor alone.

 

[Ent]

There are, I think, times when 'external forces' need to be dealt with freeing a person to their own will, such as the Gandalf/Sauron battle at Amon Hen on Frodo's' behalf.

There are other times when Eru uses existing thoughts, feelings, and even circumstantial events to motivate the 'preferred decision' of a person. This is called at times 'intervention', and at other times, 'providence' depending on Eru's chosen method.

THEN there are times when the circumstance and decision are our own.
Here's my 'parallel circumstance', offered as "perhaps" the nature of Frodo's choice at the Council. I'll express it from three perspectives.

Type 1. It's time to go to Great Aunt Tilly's house for the annual Gargantua's Clothing contest, indulged in by almost all the family. (Insert any other family festivity you choose.) I absolutely hate to go to Great Aunt Tilly's house, as her daughter is intolerably self-centered, and her daughter's son, as a result, is an unsufferable brat. However, the family all participate, and ostracize the rest badly when they don't come. So, as much as I do not WILL (prefer) to go, nonetheless I CHOOSE to go, as it is 'best'. (denying self-gratification to avoid externally induced circumstances.)

Type 2. I've had a significant heart situation, and need surgery. The issue and damage are serious, and there's only about a 35% chance of success. I fear the surgery extremely, and do not will it (wish/prefer) it in any way. But I submit myself to the witch doctor nonetheless, knowing NOT to do it is a sure death sentence. (personal acceptance of personal 'best choice' in spite of the facts.)

Type 3. The country is at war. Troops are being slain at an unprecedented rate. Yet if I do not join and help in the effort, the whole country and all its people will almost certainly be subjugated to a new ruling entity and tyranny of an unimaginable sort. Therefore, I choose to join and help, though I do not WILL (prefer, wish) to do so. (Personal sacrifice for the benefit of others.)

The above 3 examples present potential circumstances 'external' to any (apparent) forces outside ourselves, but demonstrate we often need to and do make choices 'against our own will'' and even as we speak our 'acceptance' of the 'choice', it is as though we are hearing someone else actually saying it. It's not what we 'really' want.

Clearly Frodo's choice, if NOT the result of Providence (circumstances used in power, to motivate) or Intervention (direct causation by an external force, fits into Type 3 above.


As ALL the things mentioned above essentially LOOK the same from an external viewer's perspective, it's very hard for us to make a judgment.

Since Tolkien did not specifically say 'an external will', but rather 'some other will', the field of options is wide open.

We COULD look at Frodo for example, see he is of split mind, and doesn't really want to go. It could well be he opened his mouth to say so. But what he spoke was from deep within him, given he knew he needed to do what was Right, rather than what he wanted.

Alternatively, we could conclude the language is specific enough to indicate an external will was indeed working through him at the time...using his own personal character and general 'goodness' as the 'hook'. Clearly, Frodo was selected far in advance for possession of the Ring, and clearly by Providence, as that is made clear in the text elsewhere by Gandalf.

So we are not surprised when Elrond says Frodo has been "appointed" the task.
The syntax and wording there is very clear. The 'appointment' is from an external perspective and source... Frodo just being the vessel. (The history of the ring coming to him and going from him is hugely imbedded with Providential circumstances all along the way.)

That Frodo is even at the council with the ring, all the discussion has been held, he is now fully instructed, and there is difficulty in decision... all these 'circumstances' are entirely Providential. Remember, none of the members at the Council came there for the purpose of having a Council... they showed up for other reasons and with other purposes.

The entire thing is Providence at work... but as to the moment of Frodo's decision itself... the causative element is subject to interpretation.

This is all one of the (several) highest points of Tolkien bringing the 'elements' of Religion into fantasy, 'but not explicitly'.

Tolkien was indeed, as someone has said, 'big on free will'. But he was also very fully conversant with and accepting of the reality of Providence in the movement of all things in all ways. (Which is not to say Providence is always THE moving factor... it is to say Providence is always present and at work in many ways, and we simply do not and cannot see and sort out how it all fits together.)

 

[Radaghast]

Yes, Frodo chooses to take the Ring of his own will. He was determined to be the best person for the job by higher powers but he makes the choice on his own, and that is one of the reasons why he's the best one for the task; why he's been "appointed" (to use Elrond's word). After all, one of the requirements for a job is the willingness to do it.

 

[Aramarien]

There are, I think, times when 'external forces' need to be dealt with freeing a person to their own will, such as the Gandalf/Sauron battle at Amon Hen on Frodo's' behalf.

There are other times when Eru uses existing thoughts, feelings, and even circumstantial events to motivate the 'preferred decision' of a person. This is called at times 'intervention', and at other times, 'providence' depending on Eru's chosen method.

THEN there are times when the circumstance and decision are our own.
Here's my 'parallel circumstance', offered as "perhaps" the nature of Frodo's choice at the Council. I'll express it from three perspectives.

Type 1. It's time to go to Great Aunt Tilly's house for the annual Gargantua's Clothing contest, indulged in by almost all the family. (Insert any other family festivity you choose.) I absolutely hate to go to Great Aunt Tilly's house, as her daughter is intolerably self-centered, and her daughter's son, as a result, is an unsufferable brat. However, the family all participate, and ostracize the rest badly when they don't come. So, as much as I do not WILL (prefer) to go, nonetheless I CHOOSE to go, as it is 'best'. (denying self-gratification to avoid externally induced circumstances.)

Type 2. I've had a significant heart situation, and need surgery. The issue and damage are serious, and there's only about a 35% chance of success. I fear the surgery extremely, and do not will it (wish/prefer) it in any way. But I submit myself to the witch doctor nonetheless, knowing NOT to do it is a sure death sentence. (personal acceptance of personal 'best choice' in spite of the facts.)

Type 3. The country is at war. Troops are being slain at an unprecedented rate. Yet if I do not join and help in the effort, the whole country and all its people will almost certainly be subjugated to a new ruling entity and tyranny of an unimaginable sort. Therefore, I choose to join and help, though I do not WILL (prefer, wish) to do so. (Personal sacrifice for the benefit of others.)

The above 3 examples present potential circumstances 'external' to any (apparent) forces outside ourselves, but demonstrate we often need to and do make choices 'against our own will'' and even as we speak our 'acceptance' of the 'choice', it is as though we are hearing someone else actually saying it. It's not what we 'really' want.

Clearly Frodo's choice, if NOT the result of Providence (circumstances used in power, to motivate) or Intervention (direct causation by an external force, fits into Type 3 above.


As ALL the things mentioned above essentially LOOK the same from an external viewer's perspective, it's very hard for us to make a judgment.

Since Tolkien did not specifically say 'an external will', but rather 'some other will', the field of options is wide open.

We COULD look at Frodo for example, see he is of split mind, and doesn't really want to go. It could well be he opened his mouth to say so. But what he spoke was from deep within him, given he knew he needed to do what was Right, rather than what he wanted.

Alternatively, we could conclude the language is specific enough to indicate an external will was indeed working through him at the time...using his own personal character and general 'goodness' as the 'hook'. Clearly, Frodo was selected far in advance for possession of the Ring, and clearly by Providence, as that is made clear in the text elsewhere by Gandalf.

So we are not surprised when Elrond says Frodo has been "appointed" the task.
The syntax and wording there is very clear. The 'appointment' is from an external perspective and source... Frodo just being the vessel. (The history of the ring coming to him and going from him is hugely imbedded with Providential circumstances all along the way.)

That Frodo is even at the council with the ring, all the discussion has been held, he is now fully instructed, and there is difficulty in decision... all these 'circumstances' are entirely Providential. Remember, none of the members at the Council came there for the purpose of having a Council... they showed up for other reasons and with other purposes.

The entire thing is Providence at work... but as to the moment of Frodo's decision itself... the causative element is subject to interpretation.

This is all one of the (several) highest points of Tolkien bringing the 'elements' of Religion into fantasy, 'but not explicitly'.

Tolkien was indeed, as someone has said, 'big on free will'. But he was also very fully conversant with and accepting of the reality of Providence in the movement of all things in all ways. (Which is not to say Providence is always THE moving factor... it is to say Providence is always present and at work in many ways, and we simply do not and cannot see and sort out how it all fits together.)

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. You put it into better words than I did. Sometime we feel we have no choice, as the examples you gave, but of course if we make the choice of the seemingly easier thing, there are consequences that we need to consider. Frodo chose to do what he knew in his heart was the right thing to do.

The other thing that Tolkien mentioned in his Letters, is the idea that Frodo was given "grace" to continue with his task because of choice. A choice made of humility and desire to save others (more specifically the Shire). This "grace" most likely aided him when the turmoil within him was growing as he got closer and closer to Mt. Doom.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

I've had a moment like that before. It did seem like it wasn't me speaking. Especially as I have absolutely no memory of my actual words, or even what I was generally talking about (it's like the sound's been turned off, leaving only the visual memory of the situation). It was in the course of a conversation, so I wasn't making a choice or answering a question like Frodo. Maybe it was more like Eljorahir's quote about Tuor.

I can be a bit hesitant in speech sometimes, trying to find the right words to express myself. But in that moment, I spoke for quite a long time, effortlessly, as though the words were being dropped in through the top of my head and coming out my mouth (rather than having to struggle past my brain circuits and through my vocal cords). It's like the friction or resistance of having to think through physical matter was removed. My unhesitating speech was remarked upon afterwards by the person I was talking to as well.

I might attempt an analogy to convey the impression I had of the event after the fact. It was like dropping something into a well and hearing not even the faintest sound, or ever seeing it again. Doubtless some things happened as a result far under the ground, but the effects were not mine, the results not for my own sake (whether or not they come back to affect me down the line), and I don't even really want to know about them. Content to leave it be and say 'it is what it is'.

But I will say it was part of a string of very peculiar events in my life.

 

[Aramarien]

I've had a moment like that before. It did seem like it wasn't me speaking. Especially as I have absolutely no memory of my actual words, or even what I was generally talking about (it's like the sound's been turned off, leaving only the visual memory of the situation). It was in the course of a conversation, so I wasn't making a choice or answering a question like Frodo. Maybe it was more like Eljorahir's quote about Tuor.

I can be a bit hesitant in speech sometimes, trying to find the right words to express myself. But in that moment, I spoke for quite a long time, effortlessly, as though the words were being dropped in through the top of my head and coming out my mouth (rather than having to struggle past my brain circuits and through my vocal cords). It's like the friction or resistance of having to think through physical matter was removed. My unhesitating speech was remarked upon afterwards by the person I was talking to as well.

I might attempt an analogy to convey the impression I had of the event after the fact. It was like dropping something into a well and hearing not even the faintest sound, or ever seeing it again. Doubtless some things happened as a result far under the ground, but the effects were not mine, the results not for my own sake (whether or not they come back to affect me down the line), and I don't even really want to know about them. Content to leave it be and say 'it is what it is'.,

But I will say it was part of a string of very peculiar events in my life.

I understand what you mean. There are times that one can speak freely like this without hesitation and it's coming through effortlessly. Your thoughts and ideas come out exactly how you would want them to. Perhaps this is what Tolkien meant. That Frodo's deep seated emotions that he knew he had to take up the quest, whether he really wanted to or not, came out as though he didn't recognize his own voice as if someone else was speaking.

Perhaps it took me a long time to mature myself to really understand Frodo. He is actually one of the most realistic characters in the book. How many times do we have to make choices to do things that we really do not want to do, but know we must? Frodo, because of his age (book) and his knowledge because of Bilbo and knowing dwarves who visited and Gandalf who also visited, was more "worldly wise" than most hobbits. He understood more of what he was getting into than the average hobbit. Even more than when Bilbo decided to go off on an adventure forgetting his handkerchief.

I dearly love Sam. I think most of us would love to have a Sam in our lives. But Frodo has become MY hero and my favorite character. There is a lot of depth there and it took a long time for me to really appreciate this character.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

But in that moment, I spoke for quite a long time, effortlessly, as though the words were being dropped in through the top of my head and coming out my mouth

Very interesting. I know you said you don't remember what you said/what it was about, but do you recall at all what the general conversation was focusing on? Just curious about what may prompt such a thing. Because I of course all ready have an idea. Just need confirmation. 😉

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

Very interesting. I know you said you don't remember what you said/what it was about, but do you recall at all what the general conversation was focusing on? Just curious about what may prompt such a thing. Because I of course all ready have an idea. Just need confirmation. 😉

The conversation flowed from one topic to another a few times, so not everything was directly related to each other. But I would say there was a spiritual inclination to it at around that moment, that might have come a bit 'out of the blue', on its own.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

spiritual inclination to it at around that moment, that might have come a bit 'out of the blue'

You just affirmed my very thoughts, my friend! *Me who looks and sees the Holy Spirit's working at every opportunity*

 

[Ent]

You put it into better words than I did

Perhaps, I don't know. But I believe we all saw your meaning..!!
Yes, there are 4 primary things Tolkien deals with in and throughout his works.
Faith, Choice, Providence, and Grace. (Really, there are far more than these four, but these are among the primary ones)
Three of these I briefly cover and demonstrate in Tolkien's writing in an Appendix in the book coming out soon. (Still in January we think. The professional formatting is done... the cover art still in the works.)
Grace I left for the larger writing, which (eventually) will cover them all more thoroughly.

The book (in that appendix) will also feature the very first showing of the artwork sketches of Gandalf and Sauron done according to my specifications and intentions.... once it's out for a short while, I'll be putting together a little writing of what I intended with the pictures and their juxtaposition. Then you all can tell me if I 'achieved the objective.' with them.