Oops, yes, we are.
Oops, yes, we are.Ach (with German ach-laut sound)! I thought we were calling this AB2
Galadriel lived because she didn't swear an oath and she listened to Melian and over time she gradually grew wiser and wiser. That's the most compelling version. I don't like that version where she's pretty much perfect from the beginning.This also seems to work a little bit better if one accepts the account of Galadriel and Celeborn if they come separately from the rest of the Noldor in Celeborn's ship; they came under the Ban but, presumably, not to the same degree of punishment. It would explain there survival (those that lived seemed to mostly be the more innocent Noldor).
I suppose I would say: the Elves & Men in Balar, Elves & Men in Hithlum, the Elves of Ossiriand, and any Elves or Men living wild in "Greater Beleriand" (including Doriath).If this TOY reference is indeed a ratification of AB2 (TOY: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar.") who is Eonwe summoning (QS HOMEV) "all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East"?
I'm not arguing, b'just trying to clarify your interpretation of this part.
True. We were talking about "not being summoned in the first place" rather than "disobeying the summons", though.And as I know you know, AB2 specifically notes, that "many" did not obey this summons (the AB2 version of the summons at least) in any case.
True. To be fair, Galadriel is supposed to be one of the most powerful Elves in existence so it makes sense they'd survive. Celeborn is also stated to be one of the wisest of Elves.There were no dangers for Galadriel and Celeborn in War of Wrath as long as they stayed near the Maiar and didn't do anything crazy rash idiotic.
Remember that they survived in the battles that had more chance of being killed in them. Far more. They barely survived the Kinslayings and the Fall of Eregion.
Your assumptions about my assumptions leave more and more to be desired. And it's Gil-galad. 🤨Ah yes the chief survivors of Doriath and Nargothrond were in the enemies lands and heavily dangerous lands.
Next thing you are going to tell me is that Morgoth was GilGalad's dad.
She left Valinor to seek freedom and her dreams in Middle-earth. Killing Feanor was also a dominant motive as well.
After the death of Feanor and Luthien she became the most powerful Elf.
These were most probably people like Oropher who hated the Noldor. And people like Nandor who desired to be free of any conflict as much as possible. And of course the people who were too injured to fight.And as I know you know, AB2 specifically notes, that "many" did not obey this summons (the AB2 version of the summons at least) in any case.
"I refuse to accept that there were any Noldor that far North (Hithlum) by that time, all their strongholds were long overrun. So making a distinction on Beleriand being separate is valid, but not relevant; all the Elves were in Beleriand [wink emoji] Well, the Havens (and Ossiriand) I would say."
True. We were talking about "not being summoned in the first place" rather than "disobeying the summons", though.
She left Valinor to seek freedom and her dreams in Middle-earth. Killing Feanor was also a dominant motive as well.
But she was wise enough to listen to Melian.
She was still rash indeed, even in the end of FA, when she rejected the pardon of the Valar for pride and love of all who had fought against Morgoth and said she'll rather stay in Middle-earth and never return to Valinor.
But still, she was not rash to charge against a Maia to fight it singlehandedly and get herself killed. Especially not when unnecessary, such as in the War of Wrath. She had enough aid.
After the death of Feanor and Luthien she became the most powerful Elf.
According to SoF, perhaps only Feanor was greater than Galadriel among the Elves of Aman, and only Luthien was greater than Feanor and Galadriel.
BTW, her fighting in WoW is also in line with her great desire to oppose Feanor and his sons. Because the result of the victory would've been the loss of the Silmarils for Feanorians forever; the Valar would've took the Silmarils for themselves (they really didn't see it through that Maglor and Maedhros would be so out of their minds to try to steal the Silmarils from the camp of Eonwë). And anyway, after committing so much evil, any of the Wise suspected rightly that the Feanorians are no longer clean enough to be able to touch the Silmarils.
That's what I assumed as well. But in NoME we finally have confirmation that she "did not love the sons of Feanor".Her anger seemed to be against Fëanor and not her half-cousins
That's what I assumed as well. But in NoME we finally have confirmation that she "did not love the sons of Feanor".
In any case, no matter which version we are going by, she certainly utterly madly exceedingly hated sons of Feanor after they kidnapped and imprisoned the daughter of her bestfriend and they started a coup and chaos in the realm of her most beloved of all her kin and they caused his death and they destroyed her home and killed her relatives again (and AGAIN!).
She certainly hated Maglor and Maedhros the least, but she still hated them, especially after the second and third kinslayings.
The only reason she was such a good friend with Celebrimbor was because he hated his father and was an admirer of her favorite brother.
❤️Celebrimbor must've followed his bestfriends to Hithlum. I guess it took a year or two for people of Balar to reach Hithlum. (Eonwë probably waited for them to arrive, there weren't Elves in Hithlum or nearby, and there were barely any good Edain there and nearby)
Also, I like to think that after the war, Celeborn made Galadriel follow him into the ruins of Doriath. That makes a very nice touch with Galadriel's speech in FotR where she says Celeborn would go to his ancient home even if it had become an abode of Dragons.
If you read "Hithlum to the East" as a narrow horizontal band of uninhabited wilderness including Anfauglith, Lothlann and so on (further east?) then I cannot help youOkay, but to my mind "from Hithlum to the East", while not impossible I guess, doesn't seem to include the Isle of Balar at least. And in the "other thread" Gando wrote (edited here for brevity):
OKRight, but I wanted to bring the "disobeying factor" into the thread too, in any case.
And I did grant that I knew you knew
At the time of the summons he was "camped beside Sirion", according to the Later Annals of Beleriand.Wait, where exactly people of Balar meet with Eonwë?
Where was Eonwë when he summoned them?
I might be wrong, but I think Eonwë was in Falas at that time.
If you read "Hithlum to the East" as a narrow horizontal band of uninhabited wilderness including Anfauglith, Lothlann and so on (further east?) then I cannot help you
Anyway, Hithlum to the East to me is just a fancy way of saying Middle Earth, East of a meridian through Hithlum, or East of Valinor/Aman. Balar is most definitely included in "Hithlum to the East"!
Sure, that comment was meant for wider reading, this being a forum & allWell, wink emoji noted, obviously I never said I read it like that, and even included "while not impossible I guess" (referring to the Isle of Balar) in my statement that you quoted.
I suppose so. I'm not here to bash CT by he way, I think he did an incredible job with the time & materials available. In HoME he has also selflessly(sic) provided us with enough rope to hang him with! I do have one or two minor beefs, but they will probably emerge later . . .Interpretation noted. We don't have Christopher Tolkien's, nor his reason for dropping the QS summoning for the constructed version. All I can says is (if obviously), there must be some reason.
Later Quenta Silmarillion has them. There were no omitting by JRR on them. Believe me I've looked for it in the entire texts. Not only that, but JRR made Galadriel even grander some 10 years after he wrote LQ. And then, 5 years later he made Galadriel even more grander.How do you know, for certain, that JRR Tolkien did not remove these?
Carl H said almost all the JRR texts are published, except some linguistic and non-Arda texts.I suppose so.
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