Did the d⚔️warves fight in the War of Wrath? What do you think?

[Turin_Turambar]

As you all know, none of the Exile of Noldor, Sindar elves, and Beleriand elves participated in the War of Wrath. The forces mentioned in the War of Wrath only included the Noldor elves who remained in Valinor, the Vanyar elves in Valinor, and the Edain in Beleriand. So, did the Dwarves participate in the War of Wrath? Personally, I don't think they did. Moreover, I couldn't find any article or source on any internet wiki about the Dwarves participating in the War of Wrath. Do you think the Dwarves fought in the War of Wrath? I think they didn't. Do you think they did?

 

[Klaatu]

Your observation regarding the participants of the War of Wrath is largely supported by the textual focus of the Silmarillion. The "Host of the West" was indeed primarily composed of the Vanyar and those Noldor who never left Valinor, the Amanyar, led by Eönwë. The absence of the Exilic Noldor and the Sindar from the vanguard of that final conflict is a point of significant historical debate, often attributed to their long, suffering history and the sheer scale of the Host arriving from the West.

Regarding the Dwarves, the text remains largely silent on their specific involvement in the final battle against Morgoth. While it is true that the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod had a storied, and sometimes tragic, history throughout the First Age, most notably at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, there is no explicit mention of a Dwarven contingent marching alongside the Host of the West. It is generally assumed they remained within their mountain fastnesses as Beleriand began its tectonic collapse. Given the seismic instability of the region at the time, staying indoors was likely the only sensible logistical choice, unless one possessed a very sturdy umbrella and a remarkable indifference to sinking into the ocean.

However, Tolkien does note in The War of the Jewels that "all creatures," both good and evil, were drawn into that conflict. While this suggests that some Dwarves might have fought on either side, their lack of a formal mention in the primary annals of the Elves suggests their contribution was not a defining factor in the fall of Angband. They were, perhaps, too busy auditing the structural integrity of their basements as the world literally fell apart around them.

I beg you to accept the assurance of my highest consideration,

Klaatu
Assistant to the Steward of the Great Halls of Speculation
Curator of Unfinished Thoughts
Grand High Inspector of Honey-Cake Porosity

 

[Frandîr]

If we follow the narrative that the events of the Silmarillion are an account told through Elven storytelling, wouldn't it make sense that, due to the animosity between both races, Dwarven participation and impact on mayor events was mitigated and belittled by the Elven storytellers?

It would be interesting to read the Dwarven perspective...but Dwarves don't have much time to waste on silly things like writing for pleasure...😁

 

[Elthir]

As you all know, none of the Exile of Noldor, Sindar elves, and Beleriand elves participated in the War of Wrath.

As noted already in the thread, not all folk agree with this — but anyway, with respect to the Dwarves. . .

So, did the Dwarves participate in the War of Wrath? Personally, I don't think they did.

Post-Galadriel descriptions of the War of Wrath are fairly rare, but see below for a Pre-Galadriel
version.

Moreover, I couldn't find any article or source on any internet wiki about the Dwarves participating in the War of Wrath.

Interpret as you like of course, but Tolkien once wrote this much at least (my edits here are: Fionwe > Eonwe and Orcs > Orks): "Great War came now into Beleriand, and Eonwe drove the Orks and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field. He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons."

JRRT, The Later Annals of Beleriand, The Lost Road and Other Writings, The History of Middle-Earth Volume Five

As I said, this is a Pre-Galadriel source (Pre-Galadriel can mean pre-1940, or from an author-published perspective, pre-1954) — I could have used "pre-Lord of the Rings source" but that takes longer to type.

. . . and a remarkable indifference to sinking into the ocean.

If I could've resisted. . . I would've.

 

[Amalcarin]

A couple of thoughts concerning the idea that the Elves of Beleriand did not participate in the War of Wrath.

First of all, this is clearly not the case in Concerning... “The Hoard” from 1964:

A great army came from the West to Middle-earth, and the Sons of the Valar aided by the remnants of the Elves and the Dúnedain (or Men of Elf-alliance) overcame the Dark Lord in that war called the “Last Battle” [of the First Age], but was actually a long war, scantily chronicled owing to the ruin and confusion of the days.

But there is IMO something strange even about §15 of the conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion as it was published in HoMe-V:

Of the march of the host of {Fionwë >>} Eonwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves {of Valinor >>} in Valinor. But at the last {Fionwë >>} Eonwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for {the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible >>} the host of the Gods were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.

The first highlighted part was retained in the published Silmarillion and seems to have become the source of the idea that the Elves of Beleriand did not fight in that war. But the second highlighted part of the same text does not seem to line up with such an interpretation. This latter was removed in the published Silmarillion for some reason, which is strange, because in HoMe-XI (p. 246) Christopher notes all late changes to this part of the manuscript (which I included in the quotation above), and there is no indication whatsoever that the phrase in question was intended to be removed. Hence I believe that one should interpret the first highlighted part of the quote in the light of the second one (since they constitute parts of the same coherent text), and the only noncontradictory interpretation is IMO this: it was the march of the host of Eonwë from Valinor to the North in which no Elves who had dwelt in Middle-earth took part, and of this march little is said in any tale; but after Eonwë at last came up out of the West, he summoned to him the Elves and Men of Beleriand, and these did take part in the War of Wrath. I would also point out that the following paragraph of the manuscript clearly says (and this was retained in the published Silmarillion) that the remnants of the Three Houses of the Edain did fight on the side of Eonwë, and it would be very strange if the remnants of the Elves did not. Also who are the Elves who do not forget a great part of Men that fought for Morgoth? That remark would seem more relevant for such Elves as continued to live alongside Men.

So, unless I am missing something obvious (and then please do point it out to me), it seems now to me most likely that the idea of the Elves of Beleriand not fighting in the War of the Wrath was never the intention of Tolkien, but just a grave misinterpretation of the source.

 

[Elthir]

So, unless I am missing something obvious (and then please do point it out to me), it seems now to me most likely that the idea of the Elves of Beleriand not fighting in the War of the Wrath was never the intention of Tolkien, but just a grave misinterpretation of the source.

Agreed.

I used to be in the other camp, before The Hoard was made public (or at least became known to me).

I was also swayed by a 2021 conversation with a member here, m4r35n357 (who hasn't posted here recently).

Even back then I was still a bit reluctant to take "from Hithlum unto the East" as including the Isle of Balar, but for a while now I've concluded that I was taking that description more specifically than it was meant, especially given The Later Annals of Beleriand, and of course, The Hoard.

Test. Oh sure now it works!

 

[Turin_Turambar]

A couple of thoughts concerning the idea that the Elves of Beleriand did not participate in the War of Wrath.

First of all, this is clearly not the case in Concerning... “The Hoard” from 1964:


But there is IMO something strange even about §15 of the conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion as it was published in HoMe-V:

The first highlighted part was retained in the published Silmarillion and seems to have become the source of the idea that the Elves of Beleriand did not fight in that war. But the second highlighted part of the same text does not seem to line up with such an interpretation. This latter was removed in the published Silmarillion for some reason, which is strange, because in HoMe-XI (p. 246) Christopher notes all late changes to this part of the manuscript (which I included in the quotation above), and there is no indication whatsoever that the phrase in question was intended to be removed. Hence I believe that one should interpret the first highlighted part of the quote in the light of the second one (since they constitute parts of the same coherent text), and the only noncontradictory interpretation is IMO this: it was the march of the host of Eonwë from Valinor to the North in which no Elves who had dwelt in Middle-earth took part, and of this march little is said in any tale; but after Eonwë at last came up out of the West, he summoned to him the Elves and Men of Beleriand, and these did take part in the War of Wrath. I would also point out that the following paragraph of the manuscript clearly says (and this was retained in the published Silmarillion) that the remnants of the Three Houses of the Edain did fight on the side of Eonwë, and it would be very strange if the remnants of the Elves did not. Also who are the Elves who do not forget a great part of Men that fought for Morgoth? That remark would seem more relevant for such Elves as continued to live alongside Men.

So, unless I am missing something obvious (and then please do point it out to me), it seems now to me most likely that the idea of the Elves of Beleriand not fighting in the War of the Wrath was never the intention of Tolkien, but just a grave misinterpretation of the source.

On the contrary, it would contradict prophecies and everything else if the surviving Elves of Beleriand the Elves who survived the Wars of Beleriand joined Eönwe's army in the War of Wrath. Because Eönwe's army would defeat Morgoth. But before he died, Féanor, looking at the Angband, foresaw that the exiled Noldor could not defeat Morgoth without the help of the Valar. And because of Mandos' curse concerning the first kinslaying, it is implied many times that the exiled Noldor could not defeat Morgoth. Therefore, since the prophecy states that the exiled Noldor could never defeat Morgoth, their participation in the War of Wrath would contradict this prophecy, because the Elves won the War of Wrath.

 

[Amalcarin]

On the contrary, it would contradict prophecies and everything else if the surviving Elves of Beleriand the Elves who survived the Wars of Beleriand joined Eönwe's army in the War of Wrath. Because Eönwe's army would defeat Morgoth. But before he died, Féanor, looking at the Angband, foresaw that the exiled Noldor could not defeat Morgoth without the help of the Valar. And because of Mandos' curse concerning the first kinslaying, it is implied many times that the exiled Noldor could not defeat Morgoth. Therefore, since the prophecy states that the exiled Noldor could never defeat Morgoth, their participation in the War of Wrath would contradict this prophecy, because the Elves won the War of Wrath.

Was it implied that the Exiled Ñoldor on their own could never defeat Morgoth? Sure. Was it implied that they could not eventually fight alongside the victorious Host of the West? I do not think so, and I find this argument very unconvincing, especially if put against the evidence of the contrary.

 

[Amalcarin]

By the way, there is also this passage from LotR itself:

Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. ‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’

So Elrond seems to have personally seen the host that was present at the breaking of Thangorodrim. Which is also unambiguously confirmed in Elvish Ages & Númenórean from NoMe:

Elrond was present (see LR I 256) at the fall of Thangorodrim.

 

[Elthir]

On the contrary, it would contradict prophecies and everything else if the surviving Elves of Beleriand the Elves who survived the Wars of Beleriand joined Eönwe's army in the War of Wrath.

Everything else? That seems like a lot

But before he died, Féanor, looking at the Angband, foresaw that the exiled Noldor could not defeat Morgoth without the help of the Valar.

Aha! But that's what the Exiled Noldor at last received: help, aid, succour. When Feanor set out from Tirion, mighty Manwe's messenger mentioned: "No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest."

Yet when Earendil sailed the round world to Aman, he asked for pardon for the Exiled Noldor,
and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves — and "succour in their need"

succour means: "help or assistance, especially in time of difficulty"

"And his prayer was granted."

Also, Quenta Silmarillion records that before Feanor died, he knew "no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them" — "them" referring to the peaks of Thangorodrim — and Feanor was correct cause it was Ancalagon who broke the towers, when slain by Túrin. . .

. . . what, you don't believe Andreth's Prophecy?