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Did the people evolve?

Firawyn

The Captain
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
2,374
A question came to mind...about ten seconds ago..that's why I'm posting..he,he :D Um..so in our world, creatures develope and change over time, as well as humans and such...Did this happen in Middle Earth?
 
Yes. it says that the elves bodies changed to fit there nature, and the Dunadain shrunk after the downfall.
Afew people here are of the opinion that hobbits are a strain of men so...
 
Yes, the nasssty humans obviously shrunk. The reason ---> Their bit of Beorning blood (known for being Animalic) helped them out with their main concern ---> being tiny, easily overlooked, stealthy, tricksy, and quiet, as many smaller animals are good at. Some of the times that nasssty hobbit sneakiness is described, it seems to me to be that a bit of magic might have been involved. Beornings definitely have a bit of magic in them. I remember spouting off my Beorning/nasssty hobbit connection one time, and other people showed up with quotes that actually gave this crazy idea a basis in fact. Go figure. :rolleyes:
 
Barley: Yes I know I need to do this but my dear, I'm in highschool, I have barly enough time to wipe my butt, let alone read an in depth work such as the Sil. I'm working on in, I've finished the Unfinished Tales, and I'm on round three of Lord of the Rings. That's pretty good for a person who didn't read Tolkien until after the Fellowship came out in theaters.

YayGollum: I'm begining to feel stalked! ;) :D Every where I post, you follow. We NEVER posted in the same threads until I began to post in the 'Opinions on the RPG' thread!! He,he!! :D
 
Yes it is good.
But i only started reading a few months before that and i've lost count of LotR and read UT the Sil BoLT1 BoLT2(Im reading that now for the frist time .The Fall of Gondalin!!!!Whoa i love the heraldry of the houses)
I thought that hobbits are just a smaller sort of men check out the "why three strains of hobbits thread".
 
Well evolution is such a vital and fundamental aspect of life itself, that I can't imagine JRRT would not see life within Arda as evolving. But I guess the questions is, what examples are found in the text, like hobbit relation to men for instance.

Anyhow, to add to the great points brought up in this thread, here are some things I have wondered about, and a quote from JRRT.

Also worth mentioning that even in the earliest days of the Elves at lake Cuivienen (not just by the time Orome found them, but long before this) the three groups were distinct in nature and it is implied they were like this from the time they woke. I am not sure if the circumstances of their waking was the cause of the differences in nature of the groups or if it was to accomidate those differences. I find the notion that the circumstances of waking (not all woke together or at the same time!) fascinating and often tend to think this was the case. (Their love of stars being attributed to stars were the first thing they saw, not the other way around.) For anyone interested in those circumstances you will only find infomation in the tale Cuivienyarna found in HoME 11.

I point this out because as a new reader I tended to think the differences in natures of the groups of elves was something that maybe was not there obviously in the begining but were just a result of things like their leader, few influencial or talented people, and the chance evolution of their skills and interests from seemingly random events and developement of their cultures. Now I know this was not so, and I find it interesting. Of course this is not to say their natures didn't continue to change and develope because of influences they came to know in life.

The elf groups also have their own common physical traits as well. Hair color is a well known example of this. This too is from the beginning though I doubt anyone thought otherwise given the way genetics work.

For any who have read The Book of Lost Tales or are familiar with the story of the Awakening of Men in it, you may puzzle over similar questions as those I mentioned regarding elves. How much impact did the premature waking of Men by a curious elf have on the nature of them? How much variety among them when they woke?

Of course this was written decades before LotR was, and The Silmarillion itself which evolved from these Lost Tales was drastically changed in almost every way. However, I think that JRRT's very old view on Men's waking coupled with what he says in Cuivienyarna are an indication that he might have imagined some real variety among when they woke. How much of that was physical, and how much concerning personaily...??

A final thought on that is that elves' immortality probably made it much easier for early events to have lasting effect on the race through the ages than it would for short-lived men whose generations are constantly changing and so losing knowledge of the past (among other things). (For thoughts on how the memories of elves differ from Men's and on how change hapens slower among elves see Dangweth Pengolodh in HoME 12.)

I'lll end with a small statement made by JRRT in a discussion and "with proposals for the 'regeneration' of the mythology" (as his son says)... from Myth's Transformed in HoME 10:

The coming of Men will therefore [because of a reason previously mentioned] be much further back. This will be better; for a bare 400 years is quite inadequate to produce the variety, and the advancement (e.g. of the Edain) at the time of Felagund.


Brackets are my doing, not Chistopher Tolkien's. Just don't want anyone getting the idea that Men's variety was the sole reason that JRRT thought of moving their awakening back. There were several reasons probably not relevent to this topic but can be found in the same text for anyone interested.
 
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I will not walk with your progressive apes,
erect and sapient. Before them gapes
the dark abyss to which their progress tends --
if by God's mercy progress ever ends,
and does not ceaselessly revolve the same
unfruitful course with changing of a name.
I will not treat your dusty path and flat,
denoting this and that by this and that,
your world immutable wherein no part
the little maker has with maker's art.
I bow not yet before the Iron Crown,
nor cast my own small golden scepter down.

(J.R.R. Tolkien: "Mythopoeia")​
 
Firawyn said:
Barley: ...I have barely enough time to wipe my butt...

It is to be fervently hoped that you do set aside time for at least that, if only for the sake of your Dear Mother who, I assume, still does your laundry...;)

Barley
 
Walter said:
I will not walk with your progressive apes,
erect and sapient. Before them gapes
the dark abyss to which their progress tends --
if by God's mercy progress ever ends,
and does not ceaselessly revolve the same
unfruitful course with changing of a name.
I will not treat your dusty path and flat,
denoting this and that by this and that,
your world immutable wherein no part
the little maker has with maker's art.
I bow not yet before the Iron Crown,
nor cast my own small golden scepter down.

(J.R.R. Tolkien: "Mythopoeia")​

Well there you are: that should settle any argument: In Tolkien's world, there was no evolution, only a private creationism. This was Tolkien's world, was it not, precisely as he wanted it to be, it was the one place he could escape to, away from what he hated about the real world, and have things exactly as he liked them. Having created such a world meant that there was no need for evolution. Eru created it and set it going according to predetermined laws — exactly according to the author's wishes. Eru existed as Tolkien created him. He had no power to do anything other than what Tolkien directed, being one of T's subcreations. Some of us act as if Middle-earth is real and subject to speculation as if it is real. It isn't real. It's a figment of a man's imagination, let us continue to remember...

Barley
 
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Barliman, like to explain how you reach the conclusion that "In Tolkien's world, there was no evolution"?

I think you are mistaken to say that settles the arguement. (Though I didnt know there was an arguement.)

Where is any indication that genetics worked differently in Middle-earth? There are only those indications that say it did not, as far as I am aware.

Just because the children of Iluvatar came into existance through creation (as far as I know this was never in doubt) does not mean that they do not evolve. At least, not that I can imagine... unless you care to explain?
 
Nóm said:
Barliman, like to explain how you reach the conclusion that "In Tolkien's world, there was no evolution"?

I think you are mistaken to say that settles the arguement. (Though I didnt know there was an arguement.)

Where is any indication that genetics worked differently in Middle-earth? There are only those indications that say it did not, as far as I am aware.

Just because the children of Iluvatar came into existance through creation (as far as I know this was never in doubt) does not mean that they do not evolve. At least, not that I can imagine... unless you care to explain?

The explanation lies in the fact that we are dealing with an imaginary place. None of it ever existed. As far as I know, Tolkien never gave the slightest thought to such as "genetics" working in any fashion at all in Middle-earth. You would not apply such speculation to a painting of a person or a piece of sculpture — why with fiction? And "argument" is the term I am using to describe the speculations about things that simply never existed because they were never said to exist by the author. Tolkien never discussed any aspect of anything "evolving." The closest he came was writing about cobbling together orcs from elves, and that certainly isn't evolution, that's Tolkien being an author. The whole idea is to "willingly suspend disbelief" and simply take in the art (at least at first) as the artist intends.

There are some things that can be inferred: that hobbits moved their bowels and washed their hands afterwards, or they'd have some very serious problems. It can be inferred that they patched their clothes when they needed to, and did all the million and one things that any rustic people would do. But since they have no place in the story, there is no point in mentioning them. Perhaps you put the existence of genetics in that category as well. Since Tolkien never mentioned anything about genetics, there's no need for me to wonder about it — I assume that Tolkien has told us — and told us well — about every single thing he really wanted us to know about. He never mentioned genetics — not even once. :)

Barley
 
If there is no evolution, that what is the purpose of evil? And we do see in the Simlarillion a "downward" trend - however I just call that finishing the Creation. In my opinion, the fact that Manwe had no knowledge of evil was a great obstacle against creation, and therefore Melkor was one of the forces driving onward the Creation. Would there have been any stars without Melkor? And without them, would the elves have appeared? The same with sun and moon, and the appearence of humans. Eru himself said that even those who oppose him only participate in the making of his Creation. Even within us, struggles only bring outwards - hopefully - the best of us.

The battle between evil and good IS the path of the evolution. And if there is evolution in the history of Ea as a whole , there should be evolution in the part of it,- genetics.
 
Yes, evolution did take place in Middle Earth but not the sort of evolution we know as we developed from apes, not that sort of evolution.
See, the elves didn't know any thing about Middle Earth when they were born. They travelled far and started keeping names of the things. When they came to Valinor, they gained heavenly knowledge. They forged weapons for their protection. They made their leader a King to govern them.
They endured terrible pain when they returned to Middle Earth. They adapted themselves to that climate.
Man also evolved in such a way if you see from the First Age to the Second age when the kingdoms of men have reached their zenith. In Numenore, the Kings of Men resembled like Elven Kings. In the first age, they gained knowledge of Arda from the Elves. They adapted themselves to the Shadow of the Dark Lord Melkor. They were not used to see such hard times. But they adapted. When Eonwe came among them and gave them knowledge, enlightened their minds, they had become greater, wiser, fairer and mightier than their own ancestors.
So evolution took place but not like Monkey to a Man or a reptile to an amphibian.
 

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