Ah, interesting. I have yet to read Adventures but I've read that Farmer Maggot was not always a hobbit.It's from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Whether it's "canon" is of course up to the individual.
Why wouldn't the poem be considered canon?It's from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Whether it's "canon" is of course up to the individual.
Oh... I thought everyone here (including moi) was in the "wide interpretation" group.I imagine some narrow "canon" to the LOTR text itself.
I don't. 😊
Is that a drawing by Pauline Baynes? It reminds me of her illustrations in The Chronicles of Narnia.I do consider them canon -- including the dancing!
View attachment 38173
They turned down Maggot's Lane, rattling and bumping,
Tom in the farmer's cart dancing round and jumping.
Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot's house was lighted;
fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted.
Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy,
his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty.
Songs they had and merry tales the supping and the dancing;
Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing,
Tom did a hornpipe when he was not quaffing,
daughters did the Springle-ring, goodwife did the laughing.
When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,
close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,
old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.
Old Maggot slept at last in chair beside the embers.
Ere dawn Tom was gone: as dreams one half remembers,
some merry, some sad, and some of hidden warning.
Did you notice that this has nearly the same meter that Tolkien uses in LOTR anytime Tom speaks, not just when he is reciting doggerel.This part is where he stays with Maggot I think They turned down Maggot's Lane, rattling and bumping,
Tom in the farmer's cart dancing round and jumping.
Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot's house was lighted;
fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted.
Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy,
his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty....
**Was it published in his lifetime? If so, I would say there is no doubt that it is canon.
Yes, it's included in the book.Is that a drawing by Pauline Baynes? It reminds me of her illustrations in The Chronicles of Narnia.
OK..Thanks for that. 🙂Yep. Published by JRRT himself in the 1960s, with a Tolkien-as-translator description placing the poems firmly within the world of Middle-earth.
There's even a poem with a cat in it too 🐾
We can't determine it, but it's worth speculating surely? He consciously remembers the rhyme after his encounter with the BW, but I'm suggesting that he knew it was there all along, which may (and only may) have helped with with the actual encounter.How do we determine that it does? 🤨 The text as much as says he remembers the rhyme after attacking the Barrow-wight.
To say otherwise is to second-guess the author.
- "Fog on the Barrow-downs"
Can you cite a source for this? I don't see any indication of it in the book. The only line I see re: Maggot knowing Tom is the following:
- "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
I don't know but as I said before I think you're overthinking things here. Expecting tight continuity with every aspect of fictional lore is usually a vain hope. Also, you're saying Frodo is robbed for growth for being given a magical rhyme, but you also expect Tom to have provided Shire residents refuge from Saruman, which would therefore hobbits of growth. Lastly, you're convinced Tom has left the OF, but the only interaction we know of is with Farmer Maggot, his neighbor. Their interaction might be similar to that between Tim Taylor and Mr. Wilson.
I don't see any worth in it. I don't see why we should try to pry into imagined motives on the part of the author.We can't determine it, but it's worth speculating surely? He consciously remembers the rhyme after his encounter with the BW, but I'm suggesting that he knew it was there all along, which may (and only may) have helped with with the actual encounter.
I don't know who AB is, but if Tom went to Farmer Maggots to toss a few back, fine, I'm okay with it. I don't see it as a sticking point. Maybe the Maggot Farm is within a buffer zone.AB definitely states that he spends the night in Maggot's farm; I regard this as canon as it was published by Tolkien in his lifetime.
I think I've covered this before. Bombadil is an intentional enigma. I think his not making sense is kind of the whole point.I actually don't expect tight continuity or anything like it, and it would be a much lesser work if thee was such an exposition heavy emphasis. I'm just after a character who makes some kind of sense, which Bombadil doesn't.
Yes, there is. The other hobbits have to learn what the outside world is like too, even if Aragorn thereafter declared the Shire off limits to all humans (including himself). And, yes, hobbits died (nineteen, to be exact), but life is harsh.
It wouldn't make much sense to me to leave such a line in the Appendices. Especially not after Gandalf basically washed his hands of the matter before he leaves the four Hobbits at the border. Also, it's a fairly detailed account of how the hobbits scoured the Shire. It'd be odd to add a line that said, "Oh, by the way, Gandalf and Tom Bombadil helped too."Wouldn't Bombadil make so much more sense if there was a line in the Appendices where he and Gandalf both brnig aid to the Shire?
I don't know who AB is, but if Tom went to Farmer Maggots. . .
Those are some miniature greyhounds 🐶I do consider them canon -- including the dancing!
View attachment 38173
Couple of things I need to apologise for here.I don't see any worth in it. I don't see why we should try to pry into imagined motives on the part of the author.
I don't know who AB is, but if Tom went to Farmer Maggots to toss a few back, fine, I'm okay with it. I don't see it as a sticking point. Maybe the Maggot Farm is within a buffer zone.
I think I've covered this before. Bombadil is an intentional enigma. I think his not making sense is kind of the whole point.
Yes, there is. The other hobbits have to learn what the outside world is like too, even if Aragorn thereafter declared the Shire off limits to all humans (including himself). And, yes, hobbits died (nineteen, to be exact), but life is harsh.
It wouldn't make much sense to me to leave such a line in the Appendices. Especially not after Gandalf basically washed his hands of the matter before he leaves the four Hobbits at the border. Also, it's a fairly detailed account of how the hobbits scoured the Shire. It'd be odd to add a line that said, "Oh, by the way, Gandalf and Tom Bombadil helped too."
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